Leading Diversity: A Discussion on CADIA's DE&I Industry Study

[Transcript]

[00:00:00] Jan Griffiths: Welcome to the Automotive Leaders Podcast, where we help you prepare for the future by sharing stories, insights, and skills from leading voices in the automotive world with a mission to transform this industry together. I'm your host, Jan Griffiths, that passionate, rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales with over 35 years of experience in our beloved auto industry and a commitment to empowering fellow leaders to be their best authentic selves.

Stay true to yourself, be you, and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership. Let's dive in.

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It is time for change in our beloved automotive industry, this we all know. Today, you will meet somebody who cares passionately about impacting that change and driving that change in this industry. Today, we're going to talk to Cheryl Thompson. Cheryl is the CEO of CADIA, the Center for Automotive Diversity and Inclusion. And we are going to dive deep into a recent study that she published called Driving Diversity. And you might think, well, okay, so, it's another study. Oh no, no, no, no. It is the first study that dives deep into this data. It is the baseline study, and we had better all pay attention. So, what I really want to know from Cheryl is simply this: are we making progress? So, Cheryl, first of all, welcome to the show. Are we making progress?

[00:02:30] Cheryl Thompson: Thank you, Jan. Thanks for having me and for highlighting this very important study. We are making progress, but not enough and not fast enough. When I think about representation of women, we are making a little progress there. But when we look across, we call it the transportation industry because we're looking across mobility, OEMs, tier ones, some defense companies, and even some dealerships. And when I look at women overall, representation for women in the overall labor market is 47%, but when we look at it for transportation, it's 24%. Now, everyone knows that's low, and we need to do better, but where I see a bright spot is at that manager level. So, it used to be a very, very low representation of females at the first-line manager level and at the executive or senior level. We are seeing that improve by quite a bit. So, when I look at the executive and the senior level, we're at about 24, 23 percent. And that's very much on par with the overall representation for women in the industry. So, that tells me we're making progress. The things that we put in place over the past ten years they're really starting to pay off. Now, caveat to that whole thing is, we need to improve that 24%; otherwise, we're not going to improve or be able to sustain those gains.

Now, when I look at racial and ethnic representation, that number, we still have a lot of work to do for that senior executive level. I'll just give you the stat of African American or Black representation. It's 14% for the industry overall, but when you get to that senior level, it's only 6%. So, we've got some work to do there.

[00:04:20] Jan Griffiths: Cheryl, I know that you have a group or you lead a group; it's a CEO coalition for change. So, I know you're interacting with a lot of CEOs. I'm sure when they're interacting with you, and you're doing your executive briefing sessions with them, you provide the data and the business case they want to hear. They want to understand the impact of the bottom line and why should they do this. And I know you're making progress there, but I heard something the other day that really bothered me. And it was this, and it's something that you will be familiar with, it was a CEO who stood up in front of a group of people and said, 'Well, I'll just make sure that I hire the best person for the job.' When you hear that, at face value, you might think, well, okay, that's reasonable, right? He wants to hire the best person for the job. That drives me up the frigging wall. And let me tell you why because it is the male, pale, and stale response excuse. Let's call it what it is. It's an excuse. It's the, 'Oh, well, there are no diverse candidates that applied. So, I'm good, right?' No, wrong question. The question is: what are you doing to build the diverse pipeline in your organization? So, when these positions come up, you have a diverse pool of candidates to choose from. Sorry, a little bit of a rant there, but how would you respond to that?

[00:05:46] Cheryl Thompson: That's okay, Jan. I love the rant, and that is precisely why we decided to do this study. We've been wanting to do this study for the past three years, and you know, it required some funding. And the reason we wanted to do it is there's not a lot of data out there available. There's the Bureau of Labor Statistics and Forum has some data for women, especially in the state of Michigan. But when we wanted to really look at the breakdown of what does representation look like. What does educational attainment look like? What does representation look like at all leadership levels and the different job functions? There wasn't a lot of data out there. So, I had heard the excuse, too, 'Oh, Cheryl, you know, women and minorities, they just don't go into these technical fields.' And we wanted to be able to have data to be able to stand up to that.

So, I just heard this the other day. Somebody asked me, 'Isn't it all about meritocracy?' Well, yes, it should be about meritocracy. You should always pick the best person for the job. However, everyone needs to have a chance to compete. That's the key, right? We need to open up that field of play so that we're giving women and ethnic and racial minorities, even people with disability, veteran status, right? All of that beautiful diversity. We need to be able to make sure everyone's getting their fair shot at the game, right? And then we want to make sure that there's diversity on the interview team, the selection panel, all of that. So, there's just so many little things that we need to keep into consideration when we're saying we want to pick the very best person for the job.

[00:07:22] Jan Griffiths: Yeah, I totally agree with you. Now, in terms of the breadth and the depth of the study, you received data from over 40 different companies and 690,000 employees. So, that's a lot of data.

[00:07:35] Cheryl Thompson: It is. Yes. Yes. We had 20 companies actually share their demographic data with us, which is not easy. People want to hold on to that data. They want to protect that data. And we found out it isn't so easy to collect the data, you know, not everyone does it the same way. And so, one of the goals of this study is to set that baseline, that template out there so that we've got everybody collecting data in the same way. And what we found out is a lot of people are hesitant to share their demographic background because they're afraid it may be used against them. So, that was a key finding in the study. So, getting those 20 companies to share their demographic information with us during the UAW strike, I'll add, was a big challenge.

[00:08:25] Jan Griffiths: Oh. Yeah. I didn't know that. Add that little wrinkle in there.

[00:08:31] Cheryl Thompson: Yes, that little wrinkle. And then, we had publicly available data from 20 additional companies. And these are the companies that shared their EEO-1 Data. And so, that went into all of the specifics that we were looking for. That was the lay of the land that we got an opportunity to dig into.

[00:08:49] Jan Griffiths: That's a term that people may not be familiar with, EEO-1. Could you explain that?

[00:08:54] Cheryl Thompson: If you have over 100 employees, you're required to share your demographic data across leadership levels and job categories with the EEOC. You don't have to make all of that detail public, but some companies have chosen to make that public.

[00:09:12] Jan Griffiths: That's interesting because it goes right back to the authentic leadership trait of transparency, right?

[00:09:18] Cheryl Thompson: I knew you were going to go there. Yes. Yes. So, important, Jan. Absolutely. Absolutely. At Transparency, we don't know what we don't know. So, now that we've got the data, we can take some action.

[00:09:29] Jan Griffiths: That's why DE&I and Authentic Leadership are hand in hand.

[00:09:33] Cheryl Thompson: Yes.

[00:09:34] Jan Griffiths: We are walking the path together.

[00:09:36] Cheryl Thompson: That is so true. Because when you get down to it, this DEI thing is all about good leadership, taking care of our people, making sure they have what they need to contribute to their highest potential and to really thrive at work.

[00:09:51] Jan Griffiths: We've talked about leadership levels, we've talked about salary, let's come down to the shop floor and talk about the plant and manufacturing operations. What did we find out in the study?

[00:10:04] Cheryl Thompson: Well, we did find out that we do have a fair amount of representation for females in the manufacturing environment, very much on par with that 24%. I think it's somewhere around 23%. We did find an overrepresentation in manufacturing, you know, and this is in the operator, the hands-on role of running production in black or African American. So, overall representation for black or African American in the auto industry is 14%. And the overall workforce, it's 12%. But when we look at those manufacturing jobs, it is like 29%. So, overrepresented at that level, which tells me there is an opportunity to develop this talent. And there are a couple of tier one suppliers in the city of Detroit that are led by black gentlemen who are doing this very well. They are developing that talent at every single level. They're letting people see what is the career path, what's possible for me. I see it as a bright spot: now that we've got the data, what are we going to do about it? How do we create those career paths so that we get more black and African American workers into leadership roles?

[00:11:20] Jan Griffiths: Yeah. And I'd like to quote from the study because I really like this quote. And it talks about attracting early talent and it says. I quote, 'One of the primary obstacles to attracting early talent is the lack of awareness among students and young professionals about the diverse range of roles and opportunities available in the industry. This limited understanding may also be compounded by outdated perceptions of the industry, such as that it involves manual labor and isn't all that innovative.'

[00:11:54] Cheryl Thompson: Yes, yes. Well, we know that that is changing. With the move to EV, autonomous vehicles, and new mobility, there are so many opportunities. I even think back to my time in the auto industry. You know, I came up through food service, I did a skilled trades role, went into engineering, and went into leadership. I was able to reinvent myself a number of times. And that was, you know, years ago. What is possible for people now? There are so many opportunities if someone is really interested in learning and going for more, right? The companies are assisting with tuition. There's the going pro fund in the state of Michigan. That is giving funding for current and future employees to develop them. So, there's a lot of opportunity out there. And I would say at the plant floor level, that's our biggest opportunity. That is the largest proportion of the workforce and that is the most diverse.

[00:12:56] Jan Griffiths: Well, and that's why I love the work that I'm doing right now with a client and that is connecting that workforce on the shop floor with an internal podcast. Because you can't reach people on the shop floor, they don't have a corporate email. But if you've got a smartphone, I can QR code a podcast to you, and we're bringing to life stories from the shop floor. And it is just fascinating. I am loving this work because they're talking about their communities. They're talking about work, but they're talking about what they do together as a team, both in the plant and outside of the plant; you want to talk about building community and an inclusive environment. It's incredible the way this thing is going.

[00:13:39] Cheryl Thompson: Jan, I love that so much because over the last four years, let's face it, we have lost that sense of connection. And that is what we all need. We want that belonging. We want that connection. And I think back to my time in manufacturing plant floor roles; it was the most camaraderie I had ever felt. And if you can get that storytelling out there, that's what's going to attract people, right? I can remember, you know before I stepped foot in the factory, I was so afraid. It was such a scary place. But to hear the stories of people and to hear that connection and the encouragement of each other, that is really a way to draw people in.

[00:14:20] Jan Griffiths: Well, as you know, I grew up in the UK. And I worked for a plant in Wales and we would go to the pub on a Friday night after work because that's the thing that you did. But I will tell you that there was more communication and probably more setting of the stage for decision-making in those Friday night gatherings than anywhere else or certainly in any conference room or boardroom.

[00:14:45] Cheryl Thompson: Absolutely. I had the same experience, same experience. Yeah. I look back on those times so fondly.

[00:14:52] Jan Griffiths: So, somehow, we have to recreate that without getting people into the bars.

[00:14:55] Cheryl Thompson: Yes. That's so true.

[00:14:56] Jan Griffiths: Without the alcohol. We'll do it without the alcohol. But I love to see what these plant managers are doing to create that environment because they get it, they know. And then you get a communications team that's lockstep with those plant managers. And then you've got it. You've got something really powerful.

[00:15:17] Cheryl Thompson: Yeah. I think we need to find a way to include our plant managers a lot more. They have a lot to offer, and you think about all of the responsibility they have on their plate. They're responsible for the wellbeing, the safety of their employees, in addition to getting parts out the door.

[00:15:34] Jan Griffiths: Let's talk about promotion and attrition. What did you find? What did the study tell you?

[00:15:40] Cheryl Thompson: You know, women overall are on par with the promotion rates, so not a lot of companies shared their data, so we've got limited data on attrition and promotion, but I would say promotion rates are about on par with the rest of the workforce for gender, for race and ethnicity. It is a little bit lower for attrition. We see there's definitely more attrition for females compared to the rest of the workforce. When I look at attrition for females, it is 35% compared to 29% for the rest of the workforce. Now, the interesting thing about this is when we look about who left voluntarily. Of women, 56 percent were women who left voluntarily, and 59 percent of men left voluntarily. And you know what I find interesting about that is women are very loyal. Sometimes, we don't know when to leave. Sometimes, we don't realize that we're not being valued, and maybe it is time to leave. So, I thought that was interesting. When I look at attrition for black and African American, that was the highest. That's 40% compared to about 20% for the rest of the workforce. So, I think we need to be looking deeper into those exit interviews. Even maybe doing stay interviews. Exit interviews: sometimes people don't want to burn a bridge, so they're hesitant to share. But if we can find out what makes people stay and, how do we do more of that? I think that's something that can really pay off, pay off big.

[00:17:16] Jan Griffiths: Yeah. I feel that the stay interview, the concept of the stay interview almost goes against the grain of what I would call traditional old command and control automotive style, right? So, this idea of, 'What? I'm going to interview you to talk about why you like it here. Why would I do that? What's that going to get me?' The idea that there's a longer-term play here is that you're really trying to understand your strengths as an organization so that you can build on those strengths, again, back to authentic leadership. But it's, how do you do that? There is a process that you can employ. It's not going to cost you that much money to do stay interviews, to find out what really is working. Because by the time you figure it out, if you wait until a person has left before you figure it out, well, the person's left. Now, you want to talk about cost impact to the business. Now you've got the drain of all that skills and knowledge all out the window. You've got to bring in a new person. You've got to recruit them. You've got to train them. I mean, and on and on and on. And there's a tremendous cost associated with that. So, investing time and energy and understanding what's really working is extremely beneficial.

[00:18:25] Cheryl Thompson: It absolutely is. We talked a lot about in the report about retention. Sometimes, companies focus too much on the recruitment area, and they don't focus enough on retention. And you're completely right; that old command and control leadership style would not like that stay interview concept at all. But we are seeing many more millennials step into leadership within manufacturing, and I believe that they have a different perspective, that they really get this retention thing because it affected them so much. And, oh boy, Gen Z coming in? They want different things, even than the Millennials, and how do we learn more about not only what attracts them but what will make them stay? There was another study done by MICHauto that looked at talent across the board. And don't quote me for sure, but I believe it was something like the average tenure is three years. So, how do we make people stay longer than that three years? And that's likely for the millennial and the Gen Z generation.

[00:19:30] Jan Griffiths: Yeah. And then we've got Gen A coming up right behind it.

[00:19:32] Cheryl Thompson: That's right. That's right. Look out.

[00:19:35] Jan Griffiths: And they have a whole different set of values and aspirations and ways that they like to communicate. And we will soon have five different generations in the workforce. So, for those leaders out there who think that they just managed to deal with a millennial thing. You better get moving because Gen Z is here, and Gen A is right behind it.

[00:19:56] Cheryl Thompson: Yes. And we are starting to see companies really dig into that generational diversity. Some have young professional employee networking groups or employee resource groups. But what I'm starting to see is panels where they're bringing in people from the different generations, and they're having those discussions about differences, strengths, and opportunities. And I think that's really cool. I love learning from millennials, Gen Zs, and can't wait to learn from the Alpha generation. It keeps me young, but also it helps me stay relevant. And if I was a leader inside of a plant right now, I would definitely be wanting to do that. To stay relevant and to evolve and learn as an individual.

[00:20:38] Jan Griffiths: Yeah. This idea of reverse mentorship.

[00:20:41] Cheryl Thompson: Yes.

[00:20:42] Jan Griffiths: You've heard my story many years ago, right before I made the decision to leave my corporate role and start this business. I had, which ended up, it wasn't a formal reverse mentoring situation, but that's what it was. That's what happened. Honestly, I learned more from that relationship than I would have ever thought possible, but somehow, we still have people out there who look at it as, 'Hey, I am this person. I have this title. You are younger. You don't have the title. You don't have the experience; therefore, I know more, and I'm wiser.' Well, not necessarily. Do you remember Cheryl? In our last interview, we talked about the shadow board that Andy Palmer had at Aston Martin. He had that female shadow board. Now, of course, we would all like to see more representation on the actual board, but it was a huge step forward. I would love to see a shadow board of Gen Z.

[00:21:41] Cheryl Thompson: Oh, yes.

[00:21:42] Jan Griffiths: Right?

[00:21:43] Cheryl Thompson: Yes.

[00:21:43] Jan Griffiths: Now you're talking. And then let's bring them together at some point. Let's have a strategy meeting between the, either the senior leadership team and then the shadow leadership team, and then let's bring them together. That's what I would love to see. I'd love to do that. If anybody wants to take me up on that, I'm in.

[00:22:01] Cheryl Thompson: Yes, I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you. And I would bet you had that experience with reverse mentoring because you don't come with a lot of ego, right? And I think that sometimes there's too much ego, and it gets in the way. Sometimes, mentors don't realize that there is an opportunity for them to learn. It's not all about them. It is about the other person and what can be learned from that. I love that shadow board concept. I think that's really cool. I can remember being at CAR, and I think it was the time when you were the keynote speaker at the MBS in Traverse City for the Center for Automotive Research. We had some Gen Zers at our speed mentoring table, and they wanted to know all about what employers are looking for. And I said, 'Let's turn the tables and talk about what your generation is looking for in the workplace.' And you know, number one, it was values alignment. They want to know do those values that are on your website, are they lived out in real life? Which makes me think so much about authenticity and authentic leadership. But they also wanted to know, is there an opportunity for me to grow and develop in the company? And they want to own something. They really want to take something and see it through to the end.

[00:23:19] Jan Griffiths: We have to give them the opportunities, you know, gone are the days say, oh, you got to do five years in this job, and then you'll consider a promotion, and you got to do your time on the shop floor, or you got to do, ah! Now, Gen Z isn't going to play that game. Yeah, they need to be exposed to different experiences. Yes. But they need to move through them quickly, and you have to trust them, allow them, and empower them to do that. But since we're on the kick of best practices here, let's talk about what did you find from the study that came through as a clear best practice.

So, our audience can listen to this and go, 'Oh, yes, that's a good idea.'

[00:23:59] Cheryl Thompson: Well, number one, collecting the data. Making sure that data is collected and that it's looked at. And where we see disparities digging into it a little bit deeper. So, I was talking about the fact that some people who are, you know, diverse or considered a minority are a little hesitant about disclosing their demographic background because they don't want to be it to be held against them. So, some companies are conducting self-ID campaigns where they're explaining why we're asking for this demographic information. They're talking about how the data will be used when it's to help them, not to be used against them. So, I think that is important. We are starting to see companies collect data outside of just gender, race, and ethnicity. They're looking at disability status, veteran status, and LGBTQ, right? So, I think that is definitely a best practice, knowing what your data says and where do we see some disparities or some gaps or opportunities. I would say the second one is having DEI just as important as any other business objective. And that means having a strategy, having people assigned to it, having a line item in the budget for it, and really being able to have some metrics and goals. And it gets reviewed just like any other business objective in a business plan review or, you know, whatever your way of looking at other aspects of the business are. I think the other one is having good data on your talent attraction practices, knowing how many people are applying to roles of all backgrounds and how many are getting through the door.

[00:25:43] Jan Griffiths: Ah, yes.

[00:25:44] Cheryl Thompson: Yes, because we did find out that 57% of people who apply to these open positions were non-white applicants. Right now, they only represent 39% of the workforce. So, they're knocking on the door, but they can't get through the door. So, it's important to know those, that data, who, you know, what universities and colleges are we recruiting from, what was the pass rate on the interviews, and where are we looking for that talent. So, that's another one. And then, how do we look for mid-level talent? What are some creative ways to get people who are already maybe in another industry and have a lot of transferable skills? How do we bring them in? So, you may have heard of return ship programs or reboot programs. How do we convince people at that mid-level to come join us in this industry? And then I would say just having, you know, and I don't even know that this should be a DEI thing, it should just be good business practice, having a really good succession planning or talent advancement program. Like an employee inside a company should have somebody besides their direct supervisor who's looking out for their career, you know, through like a personal development committee, so that they can talk about what it is that they are looking for in terms of opportunity. When that opportunity comes up, there's somebody looking for them and say, 'Oh yeah, Jan was interested in this role.' Right? I think we don't do a great job there, and we need to do better. And then, of course, mentorship, sponsorship, even sponsors women who are over-mentored and under-sponsored, right? A mentor, like we were talking about, is somebody who's sharing their experience and advice with you. But a sponsor is someone who is at the table or in a room you're not yet in, and they are advocating for you, and you may never even know about it—so, making sure that there are executives acting as sponsors, both formally and informally. So, those are some of the things that stand out.

[00:27:50] Jan Griffiths: I agree. And then, to quote you again from the study, one of the key takeaways, you say that, 'It demands deliberate focus and time investment.' And there it is, deliberate focus and time investment. Now, we have the data, Cheryl, which is great that we've got this first baseline study. And we'll put a link in the show notes so that people can download this. And when you talk about a survey or data study, sometimes your eyes go to the back of your head, and you go, 'Oh gosh, I'm not going to read that.' I can tell you, I've just read it. It's a fairly easy read. You will get a lot of great information from it. So, I would encourage you to download it. And then, I believe you're also offering some additional services in addition to the study.

[00:28:39] Cheryl Thompson: Yes, we think it's so important to get this data into the hands of leaders. So, we are offering a free executive debrief. If someone would like to really go into some of this data at a deeper level, we'd love to come in and talk to your executive team.

[00:28:55] Jan Griffiths: That's great. And we'll put links in the show notes on how to reach Cheryl, how to access the study. And also, if you're interested in learning more about Cheryl, then I'll put a link in the show notes to our previous interview where we take her all the way through to her backstory and, it is fascinating, her incredible career in automotive and why she's doing what she's doing right now. And with that, Cheryl, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:29:25] Cheryl Thompson: Thank you so much, Jan. I really appreciate the opportunity.

[00:29:33] Jan Griffiths: Thank you for listening to the Automotive Leaders Podcast. Click the listen link in the show notes to subscribe for free on your platform of choice, and don't forget to download the 21 Traits of Authentic Leadership PDF by clicking on the link below and remember. Stay true to yourself, be you, and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership.