Meet Heather Klish, President Dura Automotive

[Transcript]

Jan: [00:00:51] In this episode, you'll meet Heather clash, a wife and mother of three young children with an extremely demanding [00:01:00] global role in automotive manufacturing that she handles so well with a calm, demeanor, and a constant flow of positive energy. Heather is on a mission to positively impact American manufacturing and she's rocking it.

[00:01:19] Heather understands that it's a people business and we learn how she stays true to herself and her beliefs. Let's get into it and continue our quest to find grass.

[00:01:36] Today we are thrilled to welcome to the show. Heather Collesh. Heather is vice-president of logistics with Delphi. Um, more importantly, how there is an authentic leader in, how do I know this? Why am I saying this? I met Heather several years ago. We both work. For two different [00:02:00] portfolio companies owned by the same private equity owner.

[00:02:04] I was immediately impressed with her presence, her warmth, and her command of her area of expertise, which is manufacturing operations at the time. Then fast forward several years. And I met Heather again a year ago at an event. And sometimes it's not about what people say in front of people. It's what they say about them when they're not listening that matters.

[00:02:38] And there were two women at the table. Who had worked for Heather in the past and listening to the way that they described her leadership style. Unsolicited, I really wasn't asking them questions specifically about her, but the way that they talked about her and they were so proud to be [00:03:00] associated with her and to have worked for her, I was blown away by that, which is why I thought you would make a perfect guest for the authentic leadership.

[00:03:10] Podcast for finding gravitas. So Heather clash,

[00:03:14] Heather: [00:03:14] welcome to the show. Thank you. Honored to be here. Thank

[00:03:17] Jan: [00:03:17] you. Let's start with your story. Who are you, where did you start your career and what brought you to where you are today?

[00:03:27] Heather: [00:03:27] Well, let me talk about where I am today and then I'll talk about how I got here.

[00:03:32] Um, I'm 39 next year is a big year for me. Turning the big four. Oh, I have three kids. I'm five, eight and almost 10. And, um, I grew up in Metro Detroit area and lived here most of my life, except for a short time that I was in grad school. I lived in Boston. Um, so I grew up in the automotive industry. I can say, um, grew up in a working class family.

[00:03:58] My father, uh, is [00:04:00] a tool and die maker still for general motors. My mother stayed at home, uh, for a few of the years when I was grown up. But later, um, worked at a grocery store. So, you know, I really learned the value of hard work and also was very much attached to the auto industry. Growing up. I have a lot of memories of cold Michigan, winter nights being out in the garage with my dad, working on cars because, you know, he did all his own repairs.

[00:04:28] And of course I was the eldest daughter of four. And, um, Was going to be out there with him. I really didn't have a choice. I remember one night thinking, you know, shouldn't, I be inside with mom learning how to cook. And it was like, no, this is the time to be learning this kind of skill. You know, as a, as a, maybe as a woman independently, he thought I needed those skills.

[00:04:49] Or maybe he thought one day I'd be an engineer. I don't know. But I think that's probably how I connected with the automotive industry early on. And definitely how I [00:05:00] became mechanically inclined. And I'm sure you know, how my engineering, um, aptitude kind of came out later. So I did go to college to be an engineer.

[00:05:08] I went to what was a GMI at the time. Now it's Kettering was a co-op student with general motors. Um, loved working there. Eventually took an educational leave to get my, um, graduate degrees from MIT. Um, and I did a program at MIT called leaders for manufacturing, which was a dual degree business degree, mechanical, a master's engineering as well.

[00:05:33] And at that point I kind of took a step back and thought, what do I want to do in my life? Um, and I guess more importantly, where can I really make a difference and, uh, become a true leader. And so at that point, I decided not to go back to general motors and, um, started working in some tier auto companies in town, American axle than acumen, where you and I met under private equity ownership.

[00:05:57] Um, and then most recently I [00:06:00] was vice president of operations at a company called axle tech, where I was in charge of all of our manufacturing plants, global quality global logistics. Um, and now I am at Delphi, as you said, lean leading logistics and lean manufacturing. So, um, that's kinda my story. And I came from what I would say pretty humble beginnings, but, uh, an atmosphere that really taught me how hard work and.

[00:06:27] Um, also kind of showed me that it didn't matter if I was female. If I, you know, didn't have a certain upbringing, I could do whatever I wanted. So I think that was a really important, um, aspect of my roots and probably what helped to get me where I am today. I have to

[00:06:45] Jan: [00:06:45] say how there I've worked in the automotive space for almost 30 years.

[00:06:50] And when you think of a vice president of operations for manufacturing for an auto company, You don't think of a female, you know, [00:07:00] I don't think of somebody that looks and sounds like you and you, you are, you know, mother of three and you have this job in a traditionally not only a male dominated environment, whereas an aggressive environment.

[00:07:14] So you got into that environment, which is great, and that's an accomplishment, but then you chose to stay in it. So what was it about manufacturing that really sucked you in and pulled you in.

[00:07:27] Heather: [00:07:27] That is a good question. And one that I was challenged with directly when I lived in Boston, I was at MIT and I had people ask me directly, why do you want to move back to Detroit?

[00:07:38] Why auto it's such a old industry and it's not sexy and exciting. And for me, um, I realized that I had the ability, the, and the opportunity to impact American manufacturing, which actually. Probably with my roots growing up in Detroit, I could see the direct impact [00:08:00] of what manufacturing means in the United States and how the auto industry, it has such a positive influence on our economy.

[00:08:07] And I knew that was something that I could be part of and have a positive impact on it. I love cars, um, and I'd had really good experiences working at general motors. I had solid mentors. That encouraged me. And I guess I could see a path there for me. I definitely, maybe didn't even realize that it was so male dominated.

[00:08:30] I think I got used to that early on. Um, but certainly throughout my career, it's been evident. You know, I'm typically the only female in the room. I know you've experienced that many times, but you get to a point where you don't even notice it. And sometimes it's a big advantage because it throws people a little bit.

[00:08:49] It's like, Oh, you're not really what I expected. So, you know, as you get some experience, you can kind of use that to your advantage eventually.

[00:08:58] Jan: [00:08:58] So tell us about your [00:09:00] leadership style. You know, I mentioned in the intro, I listened to these two women talking about how great it was to work for you. So tell us what, what is that?

[00:09:11] What's, what's great leadership. You know, who, who are you as a leader?

[00:09:16] Heather: [00:09:16] I would say that FinTech is so important to me. I just don't have the ability to really function in a false way or to imitate others or to be kind of a phony to use that kind of cliche word. So what's most natural to me is to be myself and, um, For me, that means building relationships and earning people's trust, respecting them learning what makes them tick.

[00:09:46] And I think in, so doing, we kind of create a relationship that, um, has a mutual respect to it. So I recognized a long time ago, especially often being the youngest person in the [00:10:00] room that I don't know everything and that people have a lot to offer. And so. I really value having a team that knows more than I do so I can really harness their potential, their leadership skills, their expertise to make us better.

[00:10:17] So I really thrive in environments where we can be collaborative and have strong teamwork. And, you know, I have no fear of, you know, I'll make the tough decision, but before I do that, I'm going to really listen. And learn and get people's ideas. And if we can't kind of all agree because a lot of times when you do that, you can agree because people will see each other's opinions and you create that environment where there's respect.

[00:10:45] But sometimes I have to make the tough call and I feel good about. My choices when I do that, because I've listened to everybody's expertise. So that's the type of leader that I met, that I am. I try to really create a trusting environment, strong [00:11:00] relationships. And, um, I'm very motivated when I understand my team and what they value, because I want them to be comfortable.

[00:11:08] I want them to be motivated and feel appreciated. And I think that all contributes to

[00:11:15] Jan: [00:11:15] you. Talk about you, use the word trust. A lot, which I love and collaboration. And you talk about surrounding yourself with smart people and you listen to them and you value the people on your team. However, that is not the typical operations leader model.

[00:11:36] That we have grown up with it's very much command and control positional power. I, the boss, I will tell you what to do. And there's this sense that if you don't follow or conform to that model, that you're weak, but you have defied that because you have been able to operate as a leader with. Tremendous progression in your [00:12:00] career as a leader in operations in automotive and still stay true to your authentic leadership style.

[00:12:08] How so?

[00:12:11] Heather: [00:12:11] I've worked in those environments. As I know you have. And I had a leader long ago that said something like 99% of life is negative knowledge, which I thought was a very pessimistic view. You know, who wants to have a life that's full of negativity. But I think what he meant was. Sometimes that's the best way to learn when you see people behave in a way that you don't want yourself to model as a leader.

[00:12:37] So I've definitely worked in the very hardcore old school, not a Mo none, um, you know, collaborative environments that kind of are typical of automotive or used to be. And I think you just learned from that and it models out to you the opposite of what you want to do. So it makes you even more convicted in the way that you want to behave when you get that opportunity [00:13:00] to lead people.

[00:13:02] So I think I've had a lot of great opportunities to see good leadership and bad leadership in somehow all of that kind of melds together into who I am today. Hmm. Interesting.

[00:13:13] Jan: [00:13:13] Okay. How has your leadership style changed or evolved over the years?

[00:13:19] Heather: [00:13:19] It's evolved a lot. I used to be more of the stereotypical introverted engineer.

[00:13:26] That's kind of how I started my career and my philosophy was I'm going to work hard and that's what it takes. People will notice me, my results will speak for themselves. And I was happy to kind of be in my cubicle doing my own thing. Um, but at some point I would say in my mid to late twenties, and I think part, part of it was grad school and being around really smart people and, uh, leadership classes and learning about authentic leadership.

[00:13:55] I realized it's really a people business. People are at [00:14:00] the core of how businesses run and the best companies have the best people. And those people feel appreciated and are motivated to be performers. So. I did a complete one 80. I went from thinking that people were overrated and kind of just there, but I didn't want them to bother me too.

[00:14:20] Um, wanting to be a leader that could influence and believing that that was really the best way to achieve results. So, um, I've, you know, not looked back from that standpoint and, you know, just continue to learn. I'm constantly learning about leadership. I love reading books, listening to podcasts.

[00:14:41] Leadership is just something that continues to evolve. And, you know, we never really arrive at that point of being the best leader. You can always learn more and gather good and bad from it. So that's sort of how I continue to model that behavior in my life.

[00:14:57] Jan: [00:14:57] What about mentors along the [00:15:00] way? Is there one particular mentor that influenced you that stands out in your mind?

[00:15:06] Heather: [00:15:06] Mentors are so important, I think, especially for females or for minorities. Um, I feel very blessed that I've had quite a few as I look back. Um, one in particular I think of early on was actually formally assigned to me when I was at general motors as a student. He was, uh, Mark sees Lac and assistant chief engineer.

[00:15:29] And he challenged me to draw out my career path at general motors, which at the time was a 30 year diagram because I thought I would retire from GM. And, um, it helped me to kind of see a plan, which was very powerful for me to kind of have a path, even though I knew it wouldn't work out exactly as I'd written it down, it gave me a potential option to get where I want it to be.

[00:15:55] Um, so that was a really good exercise early on. And. [00:16:00] Another way that Mark influenced me tremendously was at a meeting with a lot of people. I didn't know, one day he introduced me, I was a co-op student and he told everyone in the room that someday I would be a vice-president of general motors. And, you know, I was mortified to get that kind of attention at the time.

[00:16:20] But. It's so important to speak those things to people that we want to mentor and that we want to encourage, because just saying it gave me power and motivation and something I'd never thought of before. You know, at that time, I don't know how many female VPs there were and Mary Barra certainly, certainly wasn't power at the time.

[00:16:39] So now we have some really great examples to look at, but, um, as a young student to have someone I admired say that about me really has carried on with me throughout my career. And I

[00:16:51] Jan: [00:16:51] like the idea of the power of visualization, the encouragement to really map out what your future would look like. And I think [00:17:00] that's something that we need to do more of in business today that we just, we haven't done in the past.

[00:17:06] So let's take that and apply that to a team. Any team that you've led or leading today, how do you really get people to galvanize together around a vision or a mission? How do you, how do you do that?

[00:17:24] Heather: [00:17:24] Well, I'm really big on having goal alignment, but that starts with giving them something they can see.

[00:17:31] And so. When I start out, you know, oftentimes I don't have all the answers when I begin, but, um, I desire to create that vision and let people know, look at, maybe I don't have it all figured out yet, but come alongside me and be part of creating that vision. So I tend to right off the bat, try to create a collaboration where I let people know their voice matters.

[00:17:56] And if you want to be part of the future, help [00:18:00] me right now. Start planning for it. And so, you know, I've do a lot of workshops, whether it's strategic brainstorming or workshops on specific strategies. Um, I have one next month that we're going to plan for a European plant where we're going to talk about our 2020 plans in 2021.

[00:18:20] And, uh, You know, we're going to start from scratch and it's the team I'm going to push them to put pen to paper. And by the time we're done with our three-day session, we're going to be aligned and have vision. Um, now I have some preconceived notions about what that's gonna look like, and I'll provide a lot of guidance and leadership, but I think it's so important for people to be engaged and be part of crafting that vision.

[00:18:45] Um, because then there's going to be better buy-in and follow up and accountability. After that, I I'm pretty firm on having processes that align our goals all the way down into our, you know, our annual objectives, um, how bonuses are [00:19:00] structured. There's so many ways to make sure we carry out that vision, but from the very beginning, it's gotta be a team effort.

[00:19:06] And, um, for me, that's, that's the best possible outcome where everybody is part of actually crafting that vision.

[00:19:14] Jan: [00:19:14] So that's the, the dream, it, the visionary part of, of leadership. How do you. Maintain that level of engagement, because I would imagine you get people excited that part of the vision that's great, but over time, right.

[00:19:31] It's hard to keep people engaged and on the bus, so to speak, how do you do that? How do you, how do you check in with people to make sure that everybody's still aligned and everything's going in the right direction? How do you do

[00:19:42] Heather: [00:19:42] that? And I think that gets harder and harder. The bigger your job is, and the bigger your company is, but it's so important to stay disciplined because if you aren't following up.

[00:19:53] People notice and that alone slows you down. So I'm really big on [00:20:00] having regularly scheduled cadences. I'm very disciplined about following, um, whether it's town halls, communication meetings, you know, a regularly scheduled review once a month. And I get into all the details. I'm very detail oriented and you know, I don't micromanage unless I see that.

[00:20:21] Our mechanisms are showing you're late. You're not on track. We've fallen off the wagon, so to speak. So I try to create structure where the, those deviations are, where things are going off. Track appear to me quickly. Through feedback loops, very regular feedback loops. I'm also really big on weight. We call them lean, go to the gemba, go to the factory floor, go to the offices, go see people, meet them where they are, could be a customer, could be a supplier, but getting out to the plants, getting out to the teams, meeting with them face to face.

[00:20:55] Um, It's so valuable to drive that accountability, but also [00:21:00] create that trust and remind them of the message that, you know, we're going down this path and there's no turning back. So I think it requires a lot of discipline and involvement and showing your face to people to know that you're committed. So they need to be committed to.

[00:21:17] You

[00:21:17] Jan: [00:21:17] mentioned that you're detail oriented. You're an engineer by trade. I can understand that, but yet you're not a micromanager. And I would imagine that that's tricky. Right? Cause if you, if you are a detail oriented person, you want to be into the detail. And then let's say, if I was working for you, you know, and you'd want to know all these details, it would be very easy for me to misinterpret that as micromanagement, or you want to know all this information.

[00:21:46] So how do you, how do you manage that so that you don't come across as a micromanager because clearly you don't, I've spoken to people that have worked for you and they admire and respect your leadership and they feel empowered when [00:22:00] they work for you. But that's tricky. How do you do that?

[00:22:04] Heather: [00:22:04] It's a balance that's for sure, but I guess what's sort of fun and excites me as I gained more and more experience because I do pay quite a bit of attention to the details.

[00:22:15] I learn more and then it feeds into my intuition about what questions to ask. So, you know, nothing drives me crazier than a boss asking ridiculous questions and you're like, you're totally off topic. And that stuff that doesn't matter. So it's important that you're asking the right questions. And of course the more experience and intuition you have, you, you already kind of know intuitively where the hotspots are going to be, where the pitfalls might be.

[00:22:42] So you ask those detailed questions and people catch on quickly, like, okay. She knows her stuff. I can't. Pull the wool over her eyes. I really need to be on top of things. And it just helps kind of sniff out where to put your attention and your resources. [00:23:00] So those are the kinds of questions I'm talking about.

[00:23:02] And sometimes they're questions just to help me learn enough that, you know, I'm, I can be dangerous. Um, but I'm also really big on accountability. I, you know, I, I have a big job. You can't have your fingers in the pot. You can't possibly know everything that's going on. So sometimes asking the right questions, help you quickly understand if people are doing their jobs and if you can trust them to continue out.

[00:23:27] Through the rest of the detail of that project. So, you know, asking those questions is really big for me. Um, I'm not big on just telling people what to do. I like to ask a lot of questions and that ends up guiding me, um, as to where I need to spend my energy and where the pitfalls might stand.

[00:23:46] Jan: [00:23:46] Tell me about gravitas.

[00:23:50] I have taken the Liberty of redefining the word or rather expanding the definition as it applies to leadership to mean that what is that [00:24:00] irresistible quality that pulls you in to a leader that makes you want to follow that leader from company to company. And I know that you've experienced that working for people.

[00:24:12] And I know that there are people that have worked for you that feel that with you. That they want to work for you. So it's not about the company or the widget or even so much the job is they, they feel safe around you and they, they want to work for you. So that to me is the gravitas, that irresistible quality.

[00:24:32] So in terms of your leadership style, what is that, that quality, maybe that one thing that about you, that, that. Pulls people in

[00:24:42] Heather: [00:24:42] that is a tough question. I almost want other people to answer that question for me. I, because I don't really know it's somewhat of an intangible thing. I think when I look at other leaders, um, the things that come to mind that I try to model the number one thing is [00:25:00] integrity.

[00:25:00] And I think if you talk to people about me, I hope they would tell you that that's number one, you know, people. No, what they're going to get with me because. I do what I say I'm going to do. I'm true to my word. And I'm honest, and those are the most important things to me. And if I don't have that reputation for me, what do I have?

[00:25:23] And I also think that builds trust. So when I look at people where I see real gravitas and leadership, it's a very high level of trust. I feel safe with them. I know they'll have my back and I'll have theirs. And so. I know that I've had people on my teams that would run through a wall for me. And we worked really hard to get to that point.

[00:25:44] And sometimes it was me kind of catching the arrows on my back, um, sometimes publicly to protect my team. But, uh, that's kinda what I do. And I think that creates a safe zone to build that relationship and that trust. And when I [00:26:00] see models or leaders that I want to model, or that I want to follow. Those are the first two things I think of integrity and trust.

[00:26:08] And from there, I think so many other benefits, follow performance and relationships, et cetera, et cetera. So I think integrity and trust are probably the top two on my list.

[00:26:20] Jan: [00:26:20] Yes. And I think the trust is the phone. Is that the foundation of great leadership? There's no question about that. And when you have trust, not only do you engage the hearts and minds of people, but speed increases.

[00:26:34] Yes.

[00:26:35] Heather: [00:26:35] There's that book, the speed of

[00:26:36] Jan: [00:26:36] trust, the speed of trust. So speed increases and cost comes down. And then after I read that book, the Stephen Covey book, I thought, wow, that is so true. I had never really. Thought about it in those hard terms, because we often think of trust as a soft skill. Um, you know, something very touchy feely, but it isn't, there are very hard tangible [00:27:00] benefits when you build trust.

[00:27:02] So it seems that you understood that very early on and it's a foundation of your leadership style. How do we encourage others to embrace building this foundation of trust?

[00:27:16] Heather: [00:27:16] Well, I think number one, you lead by example, that's really the best, you know, tried and true method to model that. And often when you show that that's the expectation, people will rise to that level of expectation.

[00:27:31] And I think also it's important when that behavior is not modeled in our organizations to call it out. Yeah. Maybe privately with our peers. Um, Sometimes that's effective. Sometimes it's not, but often people have come from other backgrounds and cultures where certain behavior behaviors were. Okay. And when you work with those people, you need to set boundaries and let them know.

[00:27:55] No, that's not gonna work for me or for my team. And that can be tough to [00:28:00] confront sometimes, but usually is effective. And, uh, I think that's also a very effective way to earn the trust of your people and let them see that this is how I model my behavior. I expect the same with you and your teams. So really other than leading by example, I don't know how else to reinforce it.

[00:28:17] There. One other method that I use when I start at a new job or I have a new team, is I actually have a written document that I call my leadership compass and I write out my personal leadership philosophy. And in the document, I basically try to explain how I operate and what I expect. And of course, trust and integrity is a big part of what I have written there.

[00:28:40] I talk about some of my hot buttons, you know, like these are the things. If you do them will get me really upset. And so I really right off the bat in black and white, I put on a piece of paper. This is how I expect you to operate. And this is how I promise to operate in the culture that I'm going to try to create on our team.

[00:28:59] So from [00:29:00] the very beginning, I try to set it out very clearly and then hopefully model that behavior going forward.

[00:29:06] Jan: [00:29:06] So do tell what are some of those hot buttons? I want to know she won't, I have a lot of them. Come on,

[00:29:12] Heather: [00:29:12] share a couple. The older you get it's like that part gets longer and longer. Um, you know, one of them, some of them are like mantras that I've learned from other leaders.

[00:29:22] And one that comes to mind is, uh, tell me the truth and tell me early. Bad news. Doesn't get better with time. I want people to be upfront, honest, bring me the bad news. Don't cover it up. I've seen that happen in so many organizations where leaders don't want to hear the bad news, and it becomes a situation where people will only tell them the positives.

[00:29:44] And it's a very, very bad situation to have. Uh, so that's one of them and then it's other things are simple. Like, you know, meet your deadlines. Tell me if you're not going to meet your deadline. Let's have a conversation to very simple things like that, but believe it or [00:30:00] not, a lot of managers are inconsistent on those types of things.

[00:30:04] So I try to just put it out there. I think that's a

[00:30:07] Jan: [00:30:07] great practice. What advice would you give your 25 year old self today? So if you were to look at yourself and you were 25 in today's environment, what advice would you give yourself? Knowing what you know right now?

[00:30:25] Heather: [00:30:25] I would say that it took me quite a few years to really see that the things that were different about me were valuable.

[00:30:33] And if I could have seen that earlier, I could have been. Much more influential. I think earlier on once I kind of understood that I had maybe some diversity, but a unique perspective. Once I realized that that was helpful and important, I started speaking it more often and it took me a number of years to realize that I should just say what I'm thinking, because half the [00:31:00] time.

[00:31:00] Somebody else says the same thing. And it's like, Oh, that's what I was going to say. But I was too unsure of myself to say it or other times other people should be thinking it. And it was a very good thought that I should put out there. So for me, it took me a little while just to have that confidence that I really had a lot to offer.

[00:31:20] And as I had more experience and more successes that, you know, continued to grow and come out more and more. But if I had to, if I could go back, I would try to expedite that process a little bit and, and let myself know you're going to get there. You've already had the experience and you have the intelligence.

[00:31:38] So, you know, just start now, don't hold back.

[00:31:41] Jan: [00:31:41] Yeah. And I completely relate to that. I know that there's been many times in my career when I wanted to ask them. Yeah. And then somebody else asks the question and you say, Oh, I was going to ask that question. And then everybody turns around and says, well, that was a really good question.

[00:31:56] And you come comment. Oh, why didn't I wait? And I just do that. [00:32:00] And I think there's so many people well out there and some people say that that's agenda thing. I, I think it. It's not just a gender thing, but I think that it happens to a lot of people. Then it's just getting that confidence and feeling comfortable with who you are in your own skin and your own thoughts to be able to put that out there.

[00:32:18] And then as I think about situations where I've, I've been there, it's fear of fear of looking stupid. And fear of upsetting somebody in that room that has the power to control your paycheck. And as a single mom, you know, I wanted to make sure that I did not upset the one that influenced my paycheck. And that was often that drove a fear in me.

[00:32:46] To speak up. And I think that a lot of people face that fear and we have to. So how do you, yeah, how do you help people get through that? That

[00:32:59] Heather: [00:32:59] I [00:33:00] try to recognize when I see that happening with young people. I, I love mentoring and coaching and just having relationships with younger people. It really adds a lot of value to me and I feel really good when I can add value to their lives and their careers, but I will actually observe in meetings that people are, you know, sitting in the back of the room or, um, Not bringing up their opinions or it may be after the meeting, they have all these things to say and I'll call them out, you know, individually of course, and say, look in the next meeting, I want you to be more vocal.

[00:33:36] I want you to give yourself a goal. How many times you're going to talk in a meeting or how many minutes you're going to talk. That's actually a goal that a mentor of mine gave me when I was in my twenties and I just encourage them. So I think part of it is to recognize it happening. Um, and also being a mentor to people builds confidence.

[00:34:00] [00:33:59] So when these younger folks have access to somebody that's a vice-president or higher, I think it helps to empower them and, um, gives them that touch point in a meeting that, okay, I'm comfortable with that person that might. Control my paycheck. They respect me. I trust them. So that brings out more of what they have to say and what they can offer.

[00:34:22] So that's one way I try to approach it.

[00:34:25] Jan: [00:34:25] They say that you can't lead others until you learn how to lead yourself. So how do you lead yourself? How do you lead your

[00:34:35] Heather: [00:34:35] life? That is a very deep question. It is. I think, especially for me, I am a person very much led by my faith for me. That's where it starts. I have a very strong moral compass and.

[00:34:53] You know, I try to spend a lot of time enriching that part of my, myself, my spirituality. I [00:35:00] think that has to be my number one priority for things to kind of fall in line. Um, you know, next would be my family, which obviously is my husband and my children. And really, I try to put my career third. Which is hard to think of if you know me, because a lot of people think that defines me, but really it doesn't, it's a big, big part of my life, but if I'm not.

[00:35:28] Where I need to be spiritually or with my family, the career part really doesn't matter. So I try to be very disciplined in all three of those areas. Um, and I guess the fourth would be physical, um, you know, trying to stay in shape and exercise and things like that. I can't say that I'm perfect in all of these areas, but I've always had sort of a.

[00:35:50] Innate, um, measurement system in my head of how I'm doing in each of those four areas. And is it balanced or is it weighted properly and [00:36:00] am I where I needed to be? And in order to feel that I'm kind of where I need to be. I'm. Pretty disciplined. I would say, um, part of the discipline is saying no to some, some things, certain things, not over committing myself.

[00:36:15] Um, you know, for example, on weekends, I just want to spend time with my kids if I'm not traveling or I'm not at work, I try to not over commit myself to too many events or, you know, social gatherings, things like that. So I try to know my limits and I think that's a big part of. How I lead myself is knowing kind of where I stand in the spectrum for each of those areas.

[00:36:37] And also where I am relative to my limits.

[00:36:42] Jan: [00:36:42] You said that you learn how to say no. I think that's an area where a lot of people struggle. I know I do myself because I want to be all things to all people on. I want to be in every board and every committee and, you know, yes, I'm in. There's a Gandhi quote that I use in a lot of [00:37:00] my workshops and presentations.

[00:37:01] And it says a no uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a yes. Uttered to please or worse to avoid trouble. And I love that quote because I think it says it all right. We've all as human beings, we struggle with this all the time. It's much easier to say. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:37:22] Right. Because you just do, you just don't want to say no, but if you, if it comes from a good place and you're truly authentic about it, then it's. It's okay. But feeling comfortable without is difficult. So how would you let's take that? I mean, I know we were talking about leadership in your personal life, but let's take that now and, and bring that into the workplace.

[00:37:45] So when you see people who are struggling, because they're doing too much, they're on too many teams, how do you help them gain that courage to say no, I

[00:37:56] Heather: [00:37:56] think that. It's important to [00:38:00] set priorities and that can be a great tool to help people say yes or say no, or realign things kind of in the right order.

[00:38:09] And so I just had an example of this today, where there's just so many things to do on an action register. And we had to kind of look at it at a basic level and say, Let's parade advisees. Let's put these in descending order or whatever makes sense for you. And let's talk about each one and make sure they deserve to be on the list.

[00:38:31] And. Because it's sometimes hard to say no. And when you see an opportunity, of course, you want to fix it and it gets put in on the action register and you know, all of a sudden it's red and it's like, well, I didn't do my job. Well, if you kind of do the upfront planning and prioritization, then there's.

[00:38:52] You're aligned on the things that matter. And then there's not the disappointment and frustration later when you don't get to the things that probably shouldn't [00:39:00] have been on your list in the first place, or maybe they're distractions, or you can get to them in phase two phase three. So I think it's really important to take a step back, look at, okay, where are we going?

[00:39:12] What are the areas that we can focus on? How do we rank them? And let's kind of put timing to that. Maybe it has to be in phases phase one, two, three, but typically when you just take a step back and walk through that with people, then they start to understand that, okay, maybe it's okay. I can't do everything at once.

[00:39:31] You can't boil the ocean, you know, one elephant, one chunk at a time, whatever that quote is about the elephant. We, I think we all get in that trap where there's just so much to do.

[00:39:42] Jan: [00:39:42] When we're working on so many different things, uh, keeping that positive energy and positive outcome is often challenging.

[00:39:54] Every interaction I've had with you, you have this ability to maintain a [00:40:00] positive outlook. I have never. Who'd you go into an, a negativity ever. Um, you know, even when you and I were challenged with an impromptu presentation with our private equity owners several years ago, and we had to present in front of 35 CEOs or something ridiculous.

[00:40:20] And we were faced with some, you know, that was, that was the fun part of the job. Right. But we also had some. Some challenges, you know, we had tough private equity ownership, and I never, ever heard you speak badly about the leadership of what was requested of us. And that's something that it always impressed me with you, but how do you, how do you maintain that positive attitude and positive energy that is so vitally important for authentic leadership?

[00:40:50] Heather: [00:40:50] Well, first of all, I've learned that you never want to speak directly after Jan Griffis. Okay. So when [00:41:00] we were offered that chance to speak in an impromptu presentation, but it was an opportunity. I looked at it like. You know, I really admired you. I was pretty junior and I thought, wow, I'm going to be on the stage with Jan.

[00:41:12] And of all of these CEOs, they're picking the two of us to present and we had five minutes to prepare. So I guess that's my tendency is to think of things as opportunities. I mean, I've definitely been in very dire situations where you're on the brink of bankruptcy. And at times I'm worried about losing my job, but.

[00:41:34] There's always opportunities to fix it. Nothing's unfixable. And so I've been in many turnaround situations now in my career that I know there's going to be a light at the end of the tunnel, and we just need to find that light and kind of spell it out to people so they can have the line of sight to it.

[00:41:55] Anytime I see a problem. I just have that mentality of well let's fix [00:42:00] it. And I think it's fun to fix things and implement systems. And that is a really rewarding aspect of my career. Some people don't like that, but that's something I thrive on and I like to put people in place and create teams to fix things so that I think gives me a better perspective of, you know, this is a problem, but it's an opportunity then it's just a mindset of thinking of it that way.

[00:42:25] Jan: [00:42:25] Great in closing some advice for young leaders working their way up through the ranks right now, a couple of points that they need to consider.

[00:42:39] Heather: [00:42:39] I think that going back to some things we've covered, I can really only talk for what has worked for me in my experience. And I think number one, Realize that you have something to contribute, especially the younger millennials, there's a different way of thinking and leaders like us need to embrace that, but it's hard to [00:43:00] embrace if the younger people aren't expressing it to us.

[00:43:03] So please realize that you have value that you can bring, and we want that value. We want to use it to help our companies get better. And then number two, I would say, you know, work hard. There's there's no substitute for hard work. And, you know, while I talked about myself as a young person, wanting to just kind of keep my nose to the grind and later I realized that I needed people to kind of help me.

[00:43:30] I still. Want people to realize the value of hard work. You can't just skip up to vice-president. You have to prove yourself. You always go into a situation wanting to prove yourself and that's okay. It's okay to be uncomfortable and have that desire to achieve anything. That is what will get you recognized eventually.

[00:43:51] So really apply yourself and work hard. And then thirdly, Seek out strong leaders and mentors. I think that, um, there's also [00:44:00] no substitute for learning from those that have gone through it before. And that, um, there's a lot of people like us that want to help young people. Um, it's fun for us and we get a lot out of it too.

[00:44:12] So, you know, sometimes I have young people that I encourage them. Hey, get on my calendar, just send me a meeting notice. And sometimes they don't, they're too timid because they don't want to take my time and I'm telling them it's okay to do it. So, you know, get rid of that timid spirit or, you know, feeling like you're not worthy because we believe you are.

[00:44:34] And you know, it's only the beginning to prove yourself and show that you are a valuable part of the team. And that's really going to take you far and get you noticed. Good advice,

[00:44:44] Jan: [00:44:44] Heather, thank you so much for sharing your leadership message with us

[00:44:48] Heather: [00:44:48] today. Thank you so much.