Meet Dr Andy Palmer, former COO of Nissan and CEO of Aston Martin

[Transcript]

Dietrich: [00:00:00] Welcome to the finding gravitas podcast brought to you by gravitas Detroit, looking to become a more authentic leader. Finding gravitas is the podcast for you. Gravitas is the ultimate leadership quality that draws people in it's an irresistible force encompassing all the traits of authentic leadership junior podcast, host Jan Griffiths, that passionate rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales entrepreneur leadership, coach keynote speaker, one of the top 100 leading women in the automotive industry.

[00:00:39] As she interviews some of the finest leadership minds in the quest for growth.

[00:00:50] Jan: [00:00:50] Imagine starting your career as a draftsman in automotive in the UK. And then you become the CEO of one of the most [00:01:00] iconic car companies on the planet. The car company is Aston Martin. The guy is Andy Palmer. Andy shares his leadership journey. That takes him from the more aggressive style of leadership that we saw in the industry.

[00:01:17] In the early eighties, through to his experience in Japan, with Nissan, he spent 13 years in Japan and how he's taken the best of all of that leadership. Experienced to become who he is today. He openly shares his vulnerabilities, what he does to deal with those vulnerabilities, how he inspires a team, how he galvanizes a team around a mission.

[00:01:45] We talk about the most inspiring experience that he's had on a team. We talk about Napoleon versus Wellington and a whole lot more. Enjoy [00:02:00] Andy, welcome to the show.

[00:02:04] Andy: [00:02:04] Good. Uh, I should say good afternoon or good morning, but hello. It's nice to see you. And it's a pleasure to be on the show.

[00:02:11] Jan: [00:02:11] Lovely. So Andy, let's get straight to it.

[00:02:14] What's your story?

[00:02:18] Andy: [00:02:18] My story. Well, um, I suppose from a career perspective, I started in the auto industry 41 years ago. Um, boy time has flown, um, I left school at 15. I didn't much enjoy school if truth be known. And I started in an apprenticeship at some 16. I wanted, I wanted, since I was about 14 years old and my father bought me a, an a series engine to assemble and disassemble.

[00:02:43] I wanted to be an auto engineer. So for me, the quickest way for a mate Z was basically to go into an apprenticeship. Um, and, and I did that at a company called automotive products. They made clutches and brakes and gearboxes four years later. Um, and with, um, with, with [00:03:00] the apprentice, uh, examinations done, I became a draftsman and then a project engineer in the advanced engineering department working on, uh, DCT gear boxes, uh, jewel clutch, um, Decided to do, um, a degree, a management degree, um, part time as I came out of my apprenticeship.

[00:03:21] So that was actually spawned by some, some of your listeners may be old enough to remember red Rabo and all of the Wildcat strikes that happened in the UK, um, in the early eighties. And I, I was inspired by just how bad management was at that time and in dealing with the unions and dealing with grievances.

[00:03:43] And I sort of set upon this ambition of being, wanting to be a chief executive of an auto company at some point in my future, which drove me for the majority of those, uh, those 41 years. Um, got my degree in industrial management, uh, used it as [00:04:00] a platform. To get employed at Austin Rover or Rover or British Leyland or all of the other names they got called over the, over the period, um, in, in, in power train.

[00:04:11] So first of all was, um, partly responsible for the development of the case series engine. Um, uh, then I went across into the transmissions area and eventually became chief engineer after five years for, um, for the transmissions, both product design and manufacturing, um, Rover because of the way that it was set up wanted, uh, any of the, any of the higher high circled high-flyers to, uh, have a degree.

[00:04:37] They didn't think that, uh, a management degree was adequate. So they were good enough to put me on to a master's degree in engineering, which I did at worry university. Um, if I take you back to the, the, uh, late eighties, you'll remember that the Japanese were coming into auto and blitzing everything. Uh, there was so good [00:05:00] and.

[00:05:00] Rover was working with Honda at the time. And I was lucky enough to be part of that, that interface team. It was also a book that was called the machine that changed the world, uh, which inspired me as a book. And I figured out that I needed to spend probably three to five years in a Japanese company to learn everything that they did and then bring it back.

[00:05:20] Um, and you know, strategy was a bit flawed as, as you, as your discover, but the, um, I had the chance to go across to Nissan in the setup of this technical sense of born out of the facility in Sunderland and helped set that technical sensor up for Europe. So, uh, after, um, eight years, I suppose I became head of the head, the chief engineer, the head engineer, um, for Nissan in Europe.

[00:05:48] And I think at the time probably, uh, one of the most, uh, senior, uh, non Japanese guys, um, So, I guess I went across, as you can tell, I went to [00:06:00] the three-year five-year plan. Didn't work because I was 10 years in, in this sand in Europe. And then the Nissan relationship with Reno was born essentially a takeover by, by rhino and, um, with very quickly, Mr.

[00:06:18] Golden, uh, recognized he had a failing business in light commercial vehicles. And I was given two weeks notice to, uh, go and, uh, transport myself and live in Japan. Um, which is frankly in spite of the, the, uh, the speed with which it was done. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, the opportunity to experience a different culture.

[00:06:40] Uh, and I was 30. I lived 13 years in Japan initially, uh, running the light commercial vehicle business, then being promoted to, uh, to the, uh, executive vice chairman of planning. Which grew into include sales, marketing, infinity, zero emissions. It, um, many of the [00:07:00] functions in Japan and, uh, latterly in 2013.

[00:07:03] So me being promoted to a chief operating officer of the group, of course, reporting directly to Mr. Gunn. Um, it became obvious, uh, that I was never going to make the CEO job, um, just to go in and made it very clear that a future future leader would be Japanese. And the future leader in rhino would be French.

[00:07:24] And, uh, I don't have either of those passports. So, um, as these things tend to happen in one's career, almost the next day, I had a call from, uh, the owners of Aston Martin saying, would you like to become the chief executive of Aston Martin? And the idea of taking what was then 35 years of automotive knowledge taking it back to really.

[00:07:50] The village next door to the one that I went to school in, uh, taking that skills back home, going with what was essentially the last push car [00:08:00] company. Uh, it's still still in private hands. That, that, that, that inspired me to go back and try. And, um, basically I had four of the, the best years I've ever had where we were able to, to recreate the portfolio, start the planning and the execution of the first, uh, SUV and take the company public.

[00:08:23] I have to say, after having taken the company public, it became quite difficult. We entered into a quite difficult phase, nevertheless, in that 18 months of being public, what I learned and that's of course from both the things you did right. And the things that you did wrong. But what I learned during that period is, is, is immense.

[00:08:42] And I think equips me very well for the future. Um, I left astern, um, in, in, in may this year, and now start to think about a future career, uh, which is likely to be rooted in, uh, in, in transportation probably, [00:09:00] uh, with, uh, with a very heavy green bias. And as you've already seen, I've taken on the chairmanship of ops, uh, which is a bus company, uh, but with an ambition to be a, basically an V company.

[00:09:14] So we we're we're in the progress or the process of turning that into something interesting. And I'm sure over the next 12 months, uh, hopefully I'll be able to announce some of the other things I have ambitions to do.

[00:09:27] Jan: [00:09:27] That sounds very exciting. Indeed. I'm very interested to understand how your leadership style has evolved over time.

[00:09:37] You know, you mentioned Rover and you'd take me right back to the farm in Wales. When I learned to drive on my father's Rover, which was this beautiful tobacco leaf color, I remember the smell of those leather seats. And it was such a, I mean, it was, it was a tank of a car, right. But it was something that I think a lot of people in Britain aspired to own, right.

[00:09:59] To have a [00:10:00] Rover, it was a lot of prestige to it. Um, but I'm very interested to know how your leadership style has evolved over time. So take us back to maybe the, the days in British Leyland and compare and contrast to then coming up through Nissan and Aston and where you are today.

[00:10:20] Andy: [00:10:20] Yeah, indeed might. My leadership style has changed enormously over the years.

[00:10:23] Um, I hope for the better, and by the way, I hope I haven't stopped growing. And that will, that, that will continue. And I think one of the key points is, is I, I would implore to everybody don't, don't get stuck in one style, um, Rover Hostin Rover, British Leyland, all of its evolutions was a difficult environments.

[00:10:46] Um, it was a very political environment, um, political with a little peanut, with a big P um, you had to fight for your survival. It was very, um, to test their own driven. If I may, [00:11:00] um, with, uh, lots of almost hand-to-hand combat, the politics were, were, were huge. And it was, it was about frankly, it was about being aggressive, um, and getting things done by, um, if your listeners will forgive me, but the JFK way of, uh, of, of management is just, just do it.

[00:11:22] Um, And I did well in, in that environment because I must've been, uh, uh, hotheaded youth that, uh, that, that settled into it. And I could shout, and I suppose with some degrees of logic, I could survive in what, what was predominantly, uh, a culture born out of manufacturing and obviously a culture that was shaped through the relationship with the unions, which wasn't particularly great.

[00:11:52] What was interesting for me was comparing and contrasting that style with, with Honda that we're working with at the time where [00:12:00] the Honda guys were much more thoughtful and clearly took time to make their decisions. So it was a, a certain amount of debate. And I would say it wasn't necessarily the person with the loudest voice that was winning the argument.

[00:12:15] It was usually the person with the most persuasive argument that was winning the argument. Um, And, and that fascinated me. And, and in two steps, you know, the first step going into a Nissan company in the United Kingdom, having its own culture, which if you want was a softer culture, um, very much more about, um, consensual, uh, discussions, very much about respecting people's expertise and very much about a very, very strong process.

[00:12:46] Um, uh, frustration, if you will, in terms of reluctance to break rules, which sometimes you need to break rules. Um, and then the second step, which was in into Japan and 13 years of living in Japan, um, but [00:13:00] even living in Japan, being exposed to significant amount of time in China, um, shaped a different view.

[00:13:07] Uh, something that I take out of all of that is, is that consensus or consensus forming, uh, what is in the Japanese word is, is NEMA washy. Is really important in terms of leadership. So perhaps the difference in style, the, the, the, what I learned in Rover perhaps was about management, about giving direction.

[00:13:29] It's a, it's a command and control structure in this. And I learned a lot more about leadership, where it was about, uh, taking people with you, giving a general direction, but using the talents of everybody around the table to debate and form the strategy. So it was much more about guidance. It was much more about inspiring people for their best listening to the quietest person in the room, um, and bringing together the IQ of a team [00:14:00] rather than simply the IQ of the, of the, of the leader.

[00:14:04] And I think we made much, much better decisions as a result coming back across into Austin. Um, it was, it was a step back towards the, the old, uh, British form of, of, of management. Hopefully, um, I hope that I made a, a sort of a hybrid of that British, um, creativity, uh, but singular drive, uh, but harnessed it a little more with, with the, with the collective and consensual, um, opinion making and strategy making, which I, I hope gives some legacy to towards Aston Martin.

[00:14:48] And now I move of course, to a difference, a different way of things with, with the chairmanship role. The chairmanship role is different from that of a CEO CEO role. Um, it's, it's more and more about [00:15:00] general direction, general stewardship and support of the chief executive rather than the executive executing the strategies.

[00:15:08] So it's always, as I say, there's, uh, hopefully there's, um, uh, hopefully there's life in the old dog and the old dog can learn some new tricks.

[00:15:19] Jan: [00:15:19] Well, that's a, that's such an interesting journey and the way that your leadership style has changed in the automotive industry, as you well know, there's still a lot of command and control and.

[00:15:32] There's a sense that if you're not operating with this sort of strength and aggression, that you may be considered weak. And I think that there are some leaders out there who know they want to lead in a much more authentic way. That's in line with who they are and, and incorporate, you know, the ideas of the people of the team and maybe show some vulnerability.

[00:16:00] [00:15:59] But the model, the leadership model is, is telling them to be successful. You need to show the people that you are in control that it's about, uh, telling people what to do. What advice would you give to people at really any level in their career that might be struggling?

[00:16:19] Andy: [00:16:19] Hmm, it's tough because undoubtedly, uh, the, there is a corporate culture in every company that you're in and you need to be successful in that company.

[00:16:29] You obviously need to know. Um, how to, how to exist in, in the, in it and how to be successful, but, you know, not everybody is comfortable with, with command and control. And, uh, if I could give a tip, because what I often find around the, the, the real, the people that are the, if you want the pinnacle of command and control is that they often don't have the strongest people around them.

[00:16:57] Um, and they often fear [00:17:00] having smart people around them. Um, what I've found is that, you know, the best way to succeed the best way to make good decisions. Eventually, most people are going to be judged by the results. You're going to get better results. If you have good people around you, and if you can employ good people around you and you use their skills, you, you engage their talents.

[00:17:24] You don't fear them because they're actually making you look better. Um, if that's, uh, if that's the structure you feel comfortable with, then, then I think generally speaking, the collective is always better than the individual. I mean, there's, there's clearly that there are clearly brilliant individuals, but, um, I, I haven't yet come across somebody that can do everything.

[00:17:43] Uh, and clearly if the, the sum of the parts are, are greater than one, if you get that synergistic effects, I don't, you know, I'm throwing sort of managerial words at it, but, but the reality is if you can engage your team and each member of the team is giving their [00:18:00] best. And if you're conducting the orchestra in a way that makes it sound as good as it can be, there's a pretty good chance that your results are going to be better than the bully in the next office.

[00:18:13] Jan: [00:18:13] Yeah, you're exactly right. And Google's project Aristotle said exactly that it's supported that multiplier effect, that the secret to a high-performance team is really getting to that multiplier effect. It is not just simply the sum of the individual parts. And so often I think that we look at an organization and we look at silos, right?

[00:18:35] We look at purchasing, we look at sales, we look at operations and we say, and the leader says, well, you know, if everybody would just do their job the way they were supposed to, we'd be fine. Actually, no, you could be better than that with the right leadership, caring for people, understanding their needs, really harnessing their full potential.

[00:18:54] You can get that multiplier effect. I think

[00:18:57] Andy: [00:18:57] to some extent, we all know that don't we, because [00:19:00] at some moment in our careers, almost all of us have been involved in a, in a team of some sorts, which is we really enjoy. And we've been really proud of. And, and if you haven't been in one of those teams yet, you almost certainly will be in one of them at some point.

[00:19:16] And generally speaking, those teams are a diversity of people. Uh, cross-functional quite quite often, um, with a singular task in mind. Uh, I know that from my point of view, the one that stands out, um, and I have a, uh, a trophy of it actually on my wall, in my office here. Um, but it was basically, uh, matching, um, uh, an, uh, an Austin, um, Rover transmission to a PSA diesel engine in, um, in, uh, a Metro and we had 12 weeks to do it.

[00:19:55] Uh, and it involves basically designing and developing a, a new bell [00:20:00] housing and associated installations. 12 weeks is a ridiculously short time, but by, by bringing together people from. Different parts of the organization from purchasing, from, from manufacturing, from engineering, from testing, and everybody basically being focused on, we're not going to allow this to fail.

[00:20:19] We're going to make it work driven by one aim. Um, one of the most inspiring teams I've ever worked in and definitely the, um, it was worth more than the sum of the parts. No, no question about it to do something that would normally take two years in, in, in 12 weeks, click clearly was something that you can't repeat continuously, but something very, very special.

[00:20:47] Jan: [00:20:47] The Google project Aristotle claims that the number one success factor for high-performance teams is psychological safety. So I'm guessing that the team you just described, [00:21:00] everybody felt. Safe to put their ideas forward to, to show up as their authentic selves, as their true selves. Could you talk a little bit about the psychological safety and how do you get that in a team?

[00:21:15] Andy: [00:21:15] Yeah, I look in, you can never promise more than you can promise if you're, uh, if you're, um, you know, a mid ranking, uh, manager in an organization, you, you can't promise somebody, um, lifetime employment or anything like that. So in fact, even if you're the CEO of a company, you probably can't promise that, but what you, what you can I suppose do is first of all, demonstrate through your own actions that you're not there to simply take the credit for everybody or everybody.

[00:21:49] Else's hard work, you know, to teach team working is also about team reward, uh, and making sure that your bosses see where the real work is being done. So I think not being [00:22:00] selfish about the output, um, is, is, is very, very important. And I think, you know, security also comes from knowing that you're doing the good job.

[00:22:09] So I think it's, it's the, it's the responsibility of the team leader to engage with the team sponsors the people that sit above the team so that people can see access to that. The more senior management and know that the thing that they are working on is inspired by supported by, uh, valued by the organization as a whole.

[00:22:34] And in some way that of course does bring psychological safety. Um, the other thing I think, and it's the hardest thing in the world. Um, and I have to say it was somewhat easier in Japan than it was when I was working in the UK. Um, but it's okay to fail. Um, we, we in the UK seem to have a big problem with failure and it's, it sort of sits with you forever.

[00:22:56] Um, The us is much better at it. And in [00:23:00] Japan, as long as you're seen to have done everything possible to avoid the failure, if you got, if it was bad luck, it was bad luck. And it seems, it seems to be put behind you, but that ability during your career to fail, but still be picked up and allowed to, to, to try again.

[00:23:18] And of course, absolutely keys learn from that failure. Um, the principle of Kaizen, um, I think, and to some extent poker you okay. Um, I think that's really, really valuable. So, so, uh, safe environments where maybe some of the parts of the team, uh, are allowed to fail and learn, but you know, your job is to make sure that those failures are mitigated and that the overall, the team succeeds, and to some extent, you know, developing a new car, uh, Wherever it might be, who for whoever it might be is part of that you're leading a team is developing a new car is, is about many, many, many parts and activities.

[00:23:58] Uh, the overall car can [00:24:00] be wonderfully successful, but in getting there, undoubtedly, there's been a number of failures and as long as you're not punishing people for those failures, uh, but they're, you're inspiring them to inspiring people to learn from it. I think there's value in that failure. And

[00:24:15] Jan: [00:24:15] that's where this idea of psychological safety comes from, right, is that people feel safe, that they can make a mistake and that it is okay.

[00:24:23] And innovation by definition is trying and failing and trying and failing to get that one idea.

[00:24:31] Andy: [00:24:31] It's not innovative if it's not failing to be Frank, um, because you're not pushing hard enough. Um, it's the, it's the, uh, as a, as a, as a racing driver or a very bad racing driver makes myself, there's the old adage.

[00:24:42] If you're not spinning, then you're not going fast enough.

[00:24:45] Jan: [00:24:45] Yeah. Well said, well said this team that you described that had a 12 week deadline, did you burn the boats? Did you, cause it sounds like there was such a, a bone deep commitment to succeed [00:25:00] on that team. How did you, you know, somehow that team was convinced that failure was not an option, right.

[00:25:06] It was going to happen. Did you burn the boats? How did you do that?

[00:25:12] Andy: [00:25:12] No, not exactly because what would have happened if we, uh, if we'd have failed, we simply wouldn't have had a Metro diesel, um, or we wouldn't have had a Metro diesel until, until it was successful. Um, the 12 weeks was driven by the desire to, uh, reach the original job one day.

[00:25:30] Um, I won't go into the details of what happened, but basically the partner of the gearbox dropped out. And, um, there was, it was I think for the team. It was exercising something in, in I'm sure, you know, in the British psyche, which is if you backed into the corner and your backs are against the wall, and you're essentially the little guy taking on Goliath, it was that, that it was [00:26:00] nurturing that desire in that team that basically they just wanted to show everybody that they were as good as anybody else, that their, their transmission was as good as anybody else, their ability to get it to market.

[00:26:11] And to some extent, it show the bosses that the original decision was the wrong one. So it didn't build it. And I do understand what you, what you mean by some, sometimes in a team. Sometimes you do simply need to burn those boats and, and give, give the team though, are the choice in this case, uh, specifically I think it was about allowing them to show their pride if you want.

[00:26:34] It was a certain amount of patriotic pride, plight pride, because the, you know, the, um, The original decision was to use a foreign manufacturer.

[00:26:45] Jan: [00:26:45] You talk about patriotic pride, you know, I am extremely proud of the fact that in your last position, you made a decision to put a manufacturing plant in my home country

[00:26:57] Andy: [00:26:57] in winter.

[00:26:57] Yeah. Even quite close to your [00:27:00] hometown. I believe

[00:27:01] Jan: [00:27:01] very close. Indeed. Tell me a little bit about the Welsh culture. What's it like leading a plant installation in the culture in Wales?

[00:27:14] Andy: [00:27:14] Um, yeah, look, um, it's been tough economically in Wales. I think it's fair to say. A lot of industry is as has left Wales.

[00:27:25] And even recently there's a lot of conjecture around the future of things like Tata steel, uh, and other, other manufacturing plants. So I think what's interesting about. Both the Welsh people and the Welsh government is that there is no taking stuff for granted. There's no easy meal and there's a certain amount of hunger, um, which may be in the past, was missing when things were a bit more comfortable.

[00:27:55] But right now, if you're, if you're growing up, uh, [00:28:00] in, in Wales, then you probably think King, you might even have to leave and go somewhere else in the United Kingdom to get it's. It's tough. And what I like about working with a Welsh is that they, they, I mean, they, they really did, um, knock down walls to make things happen because there was this hunger to, and this hunger times pride that plate on a DBX that says made in Wales, as opposed to saying, made in the United Kingdom.

[00:28:33] Um, an enormous is an enormous motivator for the team. And I see on every car that goes down the track, um, that times, the fact that, you know, if they don't have a job there, then there's a pretty good chance. They don't have a job anywhere. Um, it makes it an inspiring group to work with. Yeah.

[00:28:52] Jan: [00:28:52] Yeah. I think so.

[00:28:53] Harnessing the spirit of the Welsh dragon,

[00:28:58] Dietrich: [00:28:58] indeed.

[00:29:00] [00:29:00] Jan: [00:29:00] Okay. Uh, we've talked a lot about leadership, as you know, I'm always talking about authentic leadership. What is, if you could summarize some of those leadership traits, what is authentic leadership to you?

[00:29:19] Andy: [00:29:19] Authenticity, vulnerability, honesty. I mean, those are the softwares that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily hear associated with leaders, but. I think by demonstrating vulnerability, demonstrating where you have, if you want personal weaknesses, um, and looking to the team to compensate for those. Um, that's also part of the honesty and then the authenticity.

[00:29:55] Um, and then I think obviously there's a certain amount of within that authenticity, there's a certain amount of [00:30:00] skills. So, uh, having learned your way through the organization, having a foundation in something, when I lecture at universities, I always say to the kids, um, you know, basically be, be really, really good at something.

[00:30:15] Um, you might not, you might not get to spend all of your career in it, but you've always got that foundations make those foundations deep. So there's this, I suppose it's the left and the right hand side of the brain. But, but, but, but basically there is on one side, those psychological things or projecting, um, that vulnerability, authenticity and honesty.

[00:30:36] And, and, and, and at the other side, being a mentor because people know that your, your, your decision making is, is robust and reliable. And if you could bring those two together, and of course, there's, the hygiene factors are things like good communication and language. Um, if you can bring those together in that package, then there's, there's a reasonably good chance.

[00:30:57] You're going to be a good leader. Now, your [00:31:00] style is going to, you're going to evolve at yourself. And, you know, I'm a great believer in, in looking at history and determining your style. If you want, by looking around one day, I'll get round to doing a PhD in, uh, in, in, uh, the history of, of, of leadership. But, um, if I can give you the analogy that I love to talk about, uh, and, and a particular battle that I've read lots about it's, it's basically, uh, the Polian facing Wellington.

[00:31:34] And the Napoleon style is very much the sorts of philosophy of the helicopter, where you sit behind the battleground on the Hill, having an oversight of the, uh, the, the battle, and then sending your leftenants down to direct the troops from that high-level position, nothing wrong with it. In fact, there's an awful lot, right with it.

[00:32:00] [00:32:00] Yes. You're giving yourself time to think and direct, not my style. My style is very much the style of Wellington where Wellington would go on his horse to the, to the parts of the battle where, where the, the front was waning and where it needed support miraculously, he never got hurt. Um, but, but basically he would lead from the front.

[00:32:25] He would draw his people and people didn't necessarily like, um, Wellington. But they, they were in all of him. They, they knew that if he was around then they were, they were unbeatable. Uh, and for me, I prefer the latter form, but there are the, you know, there are plenty of people that the former, but I think understanding that there are different, different methodologies.

[00:32:49] And even sometimes you can yourself transport between the two methodologies I think is, is important. Or part of that authenticity.

[00:32:59] Jan: [00:32:59] You [00:33:00] mentioned vulnerability, you're a senior level executive and have been for many, many years. Aren't you concerned that people might see you as weak? If you show vulnerability?

[00:33:14] I know that that's a fear that a lot of leaders had. They're afraid to show vulnerability, but yet it's a strength.

[00:33:23] Andy: [00:33:23] Uh, I look, I, I, I get it. I mean, um, um, If you show weakness, people will see weakness. Uh, but the fact is, as we all know, you, you can admire leaders that you or I have worked with when you get close to them, you find out they're only human and, uh, humans are vulnerable.

[00:33:46] And I think you're a much better leader if you know where your personal vulnerability is, because at least then you can choose the team around you that compensates for it. You know, I I'm, um, [00:34:00] intrinsically quite shy. It might surprise you to hear, um, I don't much care for small talk at parties. Um, yes, I'm a great believer in management by walkabout.

[00:34:16] So I used to have, uh, um, a guy around me for much of my career. You may know him, Simon sprawl, um, who was the guy that would come in my office and say, Andy, we're going for a walk. And he would, he just walked and then, you know, basically I'd fall into the comfort of, of, of talking to people because I know that's important.

[00:34:36] And I know when I do it, I like it. But, but I needed someone around me to give me that stimulus. The vulnerability is that the I'm telling you I'm quite a shy individual. Um, but, but, but basically, so, you know, I don't need to tell you, because when I'm talking on, on something like this, I won't come across as particularly shy, but that's only the outer shell, the inner shell is, is, is, is, is quite vulnerable in that sense.

[00:35:00] [00:34:59] But isn't it better that your team knows that so that they can compensate for it? I would argue. Yes,

[00:35:05] Jan: [00:35:05] absolutely. It is a strength, but often hard to see vulnerability as a strength.

[00:35:12] Andy: [00:35:12] Yeah. Well, look, I suppose it's, it's a weakness if you're in a political organization, but, but then again, I would, I would use the weaknesses of strength and, uh, uh, and, and you can, you can inspire people to help protect you.

[00:35:23] So. So, yes, look, I think it all, it's all part of being an honest, I mean, to be, to be a good leader, I think you need to be honest anyway, and, and being honest is also about admitting your shortfalls and admitting your mistakes. And I say, I ended up finding that by saying I'm a, I'm a, I'm a disciple of lean.

[00:35:43] I'm a disciple of Kaizen. So it's okay to make mistakes, uh, as long as you learn from them.

[00:35:49] Jan: [00:35:49] Yeah. Well said gravitas is, to me the hallmark of authentic leadership. It is that, that ultimate feeling [00:36:00] a sense that just draws people in much more than just a, just a presence. It's from a leadership perspective.

[00:36:07] Leaders with gravitas are leaders that people love to follow. What is gravitas to you?

[00:36:16] Andy: [00:36:16] I suppose. When you reach a certain stage in your life, and some people clearly reach it a lot earlier than others, um, where you've seen what you're doing as, as, as being successful, when you successfully lead teams, when you've got a certain amount of experience, when you've learned how to deal with different cultures, when you have a certain confidence, one side, um, where you're able to communicate and project yourself, create empathy with people on another and, and where you're, where I would say that you've got solid foundations.

[00:36:59] And this is a [00:37:00] point where often, often I think many, many, many leaders come unstuck, but if you've got deep foundations that you can always go back and rely on, somehow that there's somewhere within those three ingredients, plus a little sprinkle of genocide, um, That's probably where the, the, the gravitas comes from.

[00:37:22] And there are not that many people that achieve it, to be honest, we know the, we know the giants of our industry. Um, and there are not that many of them and every now and again, some of those giants demonstrate their own vulnerability and you find out that their foundations aren't that, that strong anyway.

[00:37:38] Um, so, so it's a rare gift for sure. Uh, and I come back to my two favorite characters of Napoleon and Wellington in that respect. Mm.

[00:37:48] Jan: [00:37:48] Yeah. Well said, well said, talk to us about vision, vision, and purpose. We've touched on it somewhat, but how do you get a [00:38:00] team behind your vision? What are some of the actual things that you do as a CEO, as a leader, in a major organization?

[00:38:09] How do you get people behind that vision? It's much more, we all know it's much more than. Producing a PowerPoint and putting a poster on the wall. How do you actually do

[00:38:18] Andy: [00:38:18] that? Yeah, it's all about belief and in spirit inspiration, isn't it. Um, I often used to refer to it as, as the battle standard that the rallying around the flag, um, I mean, the end, the, the, the goal that you you've pointed the team towards needs to be very clear, needs to be simple, to articulate, um, you know, in a, in a big organization, not everybody is as well-informed, as you'd like, not everybody is, is as smart at understanding things as you'd like, not everybody has the same level of interest, but everybody will, will understand a simple message.

[00:39:00] [00:38:59] Well-communicated. So if you've got that simple message, well communicated, and you have, you're able to demonstrate a delivery mechanism that shows it's possible. In other words, people can believe in the Villa vision. Um, and if you're able to point out perhaps the, the things that are difficult about it, you know, you've already, you've already pointed out the bear traps and the things to be avoided.

[00:39:27] And if that, that vision is, is something that you can be proud of as a team. Um, I think that's how, I mean that that's broadly how you, how, how you get there. Now, some people do that. Naturally. Some people are very, very good at talking about what they want to go and what they want to create. Um, and I'm thinking of people like, you know, Elon Musk, for example, um, some people it's not quite so natural, um, through, through my [00:40:00] career.

[00:40:00] Um, obviously you can tell heavily influenced in Japan. Uh, and in this case I did my PhD on, on this particular subject is the use of something called a Hoshin Kanri. Which directly translated into policy deployment, but if you want, it takes a, it takes a vision or a policy and it breaks it down into strategy and tactic and gets down to the individual, the individual's annual objectives, if you want to go that deep.

[00:40:27] Um, and I think what it does is it structures that story, whether it's, uh, whether it's, um, a transformational story or a equity story, basically it puts the bones around that, the delivery mechanism. So for, for example, in the case of Aston Martin, it was the second century plan, seven cars in seven years.

[00:40:49] Um, in the case of, of this San, it was the Nissan one 80. Um, in the case of the gearbox, um, that I talked about, it was the, uh, [00:41:00] it was the, um, our 65, uh, simultaneous engineering projects. Um, but, but you know, not quite so inspirational, I was much younger, but basically somewhere in my mind, There was a vision, a strategy to get there and a bunch of things that needed to be done.

[00:41:17] And I discovered this methodology of Hoshin Kanri, which helped me, um, structure that for other people and helped me to explain that that vision in each of the transformations I was responsible for.

[00:41:31] Jan: [00:41:31] When you, once you have a vision, you have your people behind the vision. How do you keep it? Keep it real, because we all know the higher up you go in your career.

[00:41:45] Sometimes it's difficult to keep in touch with. What's really going on. And now you've already talked about you're very much a supporter of management by walking around you, you know, you'd, you'd like to walk around and talk to people, but there are other stakeholders, right? There [00:42:00] are suppliers. There are customers.

[00:42:02] You can't get around to everybody all of the time. So how do you keep it? How do you keep it real? As a, as a CEO, as a senior executive.

[00:42:14] Andy: [00:42:14] I suppose everybody has their own particular, their own particular style. Um, certainly the worst CA kind of transformations are the ones that only last a few weeks where someone has a very, a very good idea and goes away and has a consultants.

[00:42:28] And they come in and they make a nice PowerPoint and then they lose a, they lose patience or they lose interest. And it's an, it dies on the vine and I'm sure we've all been part of initiatives that, that died on the vine because you know, something like 70% of all turnaround initiatives fail anyway. Um, how do you keep it real?

[00:42:46] Well, again, I, I talk only for myself. I always had always have had a very large first line. So the first thing I did, for example, at Aston was cut out the, [00:43:00] um, what was the COO CFO line people. So rather than having two or three people reporting to me, I think I had 12, um, A flat structure is another way of saying the same thing.

[00:43:12] So I took out two levels of management actually. So get it as flat as you can means that the, the, the, the distance between the top of the organization and the bottom of the organization is, is much closer. It also gives you exposure to a lot of different perspectives rather than filter the filtered few.

[00:43:32] Um, and the less filtering in an organization, uh, tends to be the more accurate understanding of what's actually going on. Um, me, I, I never ever made a decision in my office. Uh, you know, I had plenty of people over the years come in and, and lobby for a decision and lobbying, I suppose, is fine. Cause you're hearing one person's point of view, but I had a very, very strong instinct that, that, you know, every Tuesday pick a day would be [00:44:00] my management day, where my whole management team would be around the table.

[00:44:04] And. Any proposal or change or idea would be debated and agreed in a consensual way around the whole team. Um, does two things, first of all, it, it kicks the idea around and finds its weaknesses with people, looking at things from different perspectives. Um, but perhaps it's as important as that. Um, when everybody buys into an idea, you don't get the kind of passive aggressive of I wasn't involved it.

[00:44:33] Wasn't my idea. Everybody brings their, their heart into the decision and they're more likely to execute that decision than, than just whinge and moan and try and kill it from the sidelines. So that's my way. I'm not sure. I'm sure there are many other ways, but that's my way

[00:44:49] Jan: [00:44:49] when you're debating ideas. As a leadership team, there's sometimes a concern that people are afraid to offend the [00:45:00] boss and may not put forward an opinion that is not in line with others.

[00:45:06] Um, how do you encourage that, uh, healthy conflict in a, in a leadership team?

[00:45:19] Andy: [00:45:19] We don't do it overnight for sure, because no matter what type of leader you are, people, people will still see you as the boss. So I think it's, it's a, it's a, it's something that's developed over time. As people begin to trust you. Um, in my, in my own sense, um, while you try and draw it out, especially from the quiet quietest member is actually a really interesting textbook called quiet, which I would advocate anybody to read.

[00:45:42] But it's about looking for the quietest member in your, in your team, because quite often they're deep, um, and it's worth listening to their opinions. But, but let's make sure everybody has, um, has the opportunities to say something and obviously draw that out. Don't [00:46:00] really call anybody that comes up with something.

[00:46:02] Um, again, to my own style, uh, it's an asset or a liability, I don't know, but, but, um, I regularly use the, the, um, tactic of humor to try and break ice, um, make a, make a joke about myself. Um, just, just release the tension a bit. You, you know, you know, uh, what English humor is old, British humor is like, so it's a bit difficult to understand.

[00:46:29] It doesn't always translate into a multicultural, uh, sense, but, but, but by being, by being a little bit lighthearted and again, maybe showing a little bit of vulnerability, um, eases the tension in the room and people will tend to, uh, tend to, and of course you must never, ever break a trust if you do that, once you broken it forever.

[00:46:49] So you have to be seen with integrity. Yeah.

[00:46:52] Jan: [00:46:52] And I think you're absolutely right when once people know that you, as a leader are not going to make a decision, [00:47:00] just purely based on the last person that left your office, that it's going to be a team decision. You're going to make these decisions together.

[00:47:08] Cause I think sometimes you see leaders where they're only, they're only as good. Their decisions are only as good as the last person that left their office and they don't get both sides.

[00:47:21] Andy: [00:47:21] I think you, anyway, you end up with better decisions. So I'll give you an example cause it's close to your heart. But, um, it was a very, very, very, very, very long meeting that decided to, to put the factory factory into, into Wales.

[00:47:35] There was a competing, uh, competing place, uh, and. Going into that meeting, I would have said it was, it was probably leaning towards the other place because everybody had got the perception that that was probably, that was probably maybe where the boss was looking for or, or was probably the favorite by most people.

[00:47:53] So people were sort of, I suppose, thinking about, well, how could this go? Uh, and again, it was [00:48:00] actually, it was actually Simon, uh, as, as a sort of naive, um, uh, marketing guy that said, well, actually I prefer the Welsh one. And suddenly you saw the, the, the, the tumble at well. So do I, I think he's good. And so the tone of the meeting changed because you allowed this case Simon to, to stand up and not fear being called an idiot because he's a marketing guy, not a, not an industrial management guy, you know, and, and it was the best decision and, and it was the best decision because it was the collective decision and the collective decision that meant it took into account.

[00:48:38] Everybody's point of view. And by the way, it was a hundred percent, a consensual decision led to us to put in that factory in Wales.

[00:48:48] Jan: [00:48:48] Great. And I love that, that it was the marketing guy, you know, like you say, it wasn't the, maybe the, the ops guy or somebody that you would, would expect to have heavy, heavy influence on this decision.

[00:49:00] [00:48:59] So that shows that people, he must've felt safe in coming forward with his idea.

[00:49:06] Andy: [00:49:06] Well, hopefully men that everybody, everybody felt that their, they, they, that their view was valued.

[00:49:13] Jan: [00:49:13] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well said, okay. Let's take a turn and talk more about personal leadership leadership of your life.

[00:49:24] So I love to ask this question because I'm intrigued. How do you start your day

[00:49:31] Andy: [00:49:31] slowly?

[00:49:36] Well, I, um, I, I get up and shower, um, I suppose as I come downstairs, regressively I, I, I always take a quick check of my iPhone, um, just to see if there's anything majorly gone wrong overnight. Um, but interestingly, I have always had a kind of rule not to, not to take you to my bedroom, [00:50:00] so I don't sleep with my iPhone.

[00:50:01] It's just a personal thing that, that, that six hours is mine. Um, and I need to rest, um, I never go out without having breakfast, no matter whether it's five o'clock or seven o'clock, I, I always grab something cause I I'm, I think much better with, uh, with something inside of me. And then when I can, I mean, I, I, I've always tried to pick my place where I live to be 30, 40, 50 minutes away from my workplace.

[00:50:34] I'm a petrol head. I love driving. Um, and I love the first thing in the morning that that ability to just wake myself up, enjoy the drive, perhaps listen to some music, um, and, and just get my head into, into the right space. Um, and then when I'm at work and then the day has started.

[00:50:58] Jan: [00:50:58] Yeah, yeah. [00:51:00] Or listen to a good podcast, right?

[00:51:03] Absolutely.

[00:51:07] Andy: [00:51:07] Don't miss an opportunity to plug it.

[00:51:12] Jan: [00:51:12] Andy, what advice would you have to your 25 year old self today in today's environment?

[00:51:22] Andy: [00:51:22] That's an interesting one because most people ask me, what would you, what advice would you give to your children? Um, cause my, the advice that I give to my children generally speaking, is, um, you know, work, work, work, um, it doesn't, it work will always Trump IQ.

[00:51:38] Uh, you know, you need a certain amount of IQ, I suppose, but you also need a certain amount of IQ and you need a certain way. It matter work ethic. And if you really passionate about something, uh, and you work at it, you'll almost certainly succeed. Um, which causes the other side of things is, is, is, is try and find something that you can be passionate about because you're going to spend [00:52:00] the rest of your life working 10 hours a day at it.

[00:52:04] You might as well find something that you enjoy. And that brings me back to me, I suppose, which was, I was, you know, people talk to me often about work-life balance. I'm really lucky I've done for my whole life, my hobby, uh, I've done something that I really, really love, which is. Which is motorcars. Um, and I consider it a privilege to work in this industry and work with the people that I've worked with.

[00:52:34] So my work and my, um, and in many respects, my, my, uh, hobby are, are one. Um, if I was however, giving myself some, some advice, um, it would be, do some more exercise during your life. Uh, don't, don't get as fast as you've got, um, because it's cause it, cause it slows you down towards the latter part of your career and are all sorts of nasty [00:53:00] things you can get.

[00:53:00] So I was, uh, I was really fit as my 25 year old self. I was playing tennis and playing squash. Um, and I probably within that busy schedule, um, I probably should have written into my diary because it was the only way it would work for me. I should probably should have scheduled three times a week. One of our tennis match.

[00:53:19] It wouldn't have made any difference, ultimately, except that I'd be a lot healthier than I am now. Um, and now I'm trying to get myself back into shape. Uh, but it would have been a lot easier if I was already in shape. So that would probably be the only advice, uh, I would have. Um, I would give myself, I think, you know, in other respects that you can't want, can't look back in regret.

[00:53:40] So song about that somewhere, isn't it don't look back in anger. Um, or you can't look back because you've got to look forward. Uh, but as I say, if I was, I I'm, I'm the, the advice I've just recently given to my son is, is, is basically do everything you're doing, mate. Uh, enjoy what you're [00:54:00] doing. Be inspired, what you're doing, work hard at it.

[00:54:02] Perhaps sign a little bit, a little bit of time to make sure you're fit as well.

[00:54:06] Jan: [00:54:06] Yeah. And I agree with that. I noticed that in particularly when you start your career, it's so easy to get into that habit of just get up and go and work because you're excited about as you get up in the morning, right. You get up and have a cup of tea and you're off.

[00:54:21] Right. And, and you have to stop and, and think about. Your personal life, your health, and what you need to really position the day to get the best out of the day. And with a view long-term that you want to be healthy later on, later on in life. Not only when you're young, but later on in life. And I noticed that I would say, I think I've always.

[00:54:46] I had some element of fitness in my life, but I really made it a priority. I would say the last 10 years. And I didn't, I didn't like it when people would schedule meetings at six 30 in the morning, because that was my [00:55:00] gym time. And then over as I got more comfortable in my own skin, I would tell people, you know, no, I'm not available this day.

[00:55:06] Right. Not explaining why. Cause you don't have to explain all the reasons why to everybody, but I CA I'm not available. And, and reaching that point where I felt comfortable saying that and making a decision for me and my health and fitness and not just automatically making every decision for work, uh, was, it was a very freeing and powering moment.

[00:55:28] Andy: [00:55:28] I, I would, again, I, you know, I struggle sometimes to say no to people. Um, that's why I say my way of fixing it is, is to schedule it into the diary. So you treat it in the same way as you would any other meeting. And if someone says they want a six 30 meeting and you say I've already sort of already got a meeting fixed at that time.

[00:55:46] So, so mentally it's, it's blocked out and you've got a, a reason to stand behind why it's blocked out. And to some extent, if it's in your diary, same as you might go into a meetings that you're not particularly keen to go into you go and do your [00:56:00] exercise. So, so I, I just, it's just, I should have done it more.

[00:56:04] I'm doing it now. Um, and you know, I forced myself now every day. There's an hour where I go and do 10,000 steps. And, um, and fortunately I've been able to keep it up because it's scheduled in the diary.

[00:56:17] Jan: [00:56:17] That's great. Now, when you say it's scheduled in the diary, you mean it's, it's in your personal schedule for the day, or do you mean an actual physical HOD diary?

[00:56:26] Do you keep a diary or a journal?

[00:56:29] Andy: [00:56:29] No, I keep us, it says it's a software. It's um, it's a Microsoft, uh, diary, so, or outlook diary. So now I don't keep a journal. I, um, I I'm a mouse scurrying stuff away. I'm religiously file everything. So, um, over the years, I've accumulated lots of stuff in terms of what I've done.

[00:56:53] And somehow, somehow I think it goes back to my PhD days where it thinks sometimes it's occasionally it's [00:57:00] useful to look back on things, but no, I haven't written the diary. Maybe one day I'll do an autobiography. You never know.

[00:57:07] Jan: [00:57:07] You never know, talking about looking back. Let's talk about your legacy. How do you see your legacy?

[00:57:22] Andy: [00:57:22] That's an interesting debate, particularly as I'm evolving into it. Is that in a new new roles at the moment? Um,

[00:57:33] I think I would answer that in two ways. The way I look at my legacy, I look it in two ways. Uh, one is unfortunate enough to work on product that I love, which is the car. And I can point to cars and I've been lucky enough to, to be involved in the leadership of, of hundreds, if not close to a thousand. Um, and I can Mark my career [00:58:00] by certain key key cars.

[00:58:03] Um, the nice thing about cars is they stay around an awful long time. But for example, uh, early part of my career, I led a team that managed to package a catalyst into the mini. So into, is he going? This is mini, the old mini, not the new one. And that kept that product alive for a few more years where it could easily have died and gone out of existence.

[00:58:24] So I look with great affection at the mini in fact, you can find just here a little model of a, of a mini, which reminds me of, of, of, uh, of that particular job. Um, no, that was my milestone at Rover, I suppose. And I think towards this sang, uh, cars like the Qashqai cars, uh, like the Al summer, um, big one for me is the leaf, the first zero emission, uh, car of, of this generation.

[00:58:56] Uh, and the impact that, that helped to have a long with [00:59:00] Tesla in terms of turning the whole market to electric. Um, in, in recent times, I would say the, uh, obviously the Aston Martin DBX, the first SUV made in Wales and soon to be launched the Valkyrie, which is, I would say the pinnacle of. Internal combustion engineering.

[00:59:20] So, um, those are certainly, I think part of that, what I would call my legacy. Um, and then on the other side, what I would like to be my legacy is really about the education of apprentices, you know, leaving behind me, the guys that I've helped create apprenticeships for have helped to nurture. Um, and, and hopefully we'll go, can't go on to continue and perhaps be the future.

[00:59:50] Andy Palmer, um, to that end. Um, I I've established a foundation upon the foundation, which is about giving the [01:00:00] opportunity to kids coming from deprives backgrounds, maybe inner cities that perhaps would go or could go off the rails. So say 14 years old, have a propensity towards the STEM subjects. But need to be nurtured and guided, and perhaps don't have that guy to ship from the father, figure in their family or whatever, help them onto the apprenticeship, um, sponsor them, pay their salary in short for the first two years.

[01:00:31] So, and then at the point of 18 years old, either find a unemployed that will complete their apprenticeship or get them into the university system. The idea of being the kids that may well have been passed over and never considered it might well end up as, uh, as, as you know, in gangs or whatever. Um, at 21 years old, they could stand shoulder to shoulder with a kid that's gone through a privilege, private school and eat and education [01:01:00] and be just as good.

[01:01:02] And you know, those at the moment, those are small numbers. Um, but hopefully as the foundation grows, I sincerely hope I can find a funding funding mechanism that that will allow that to grow and grow and grow. And that we can see British kids going through STEM subjects and you know, who knows? I have a big ambition, maybe one day internationally.

[01:01:26] Yeah. That's

[01:01:26] Jan: [01:01:26] wonderful. That's a great legacy to have. Well, I would like to thank you very much for your time today, and I have to tell you, I'm tremendously excited to see what the next chapter is for you, this incredible career, but the different cultures that you have really worked in. And you really, I mean, you know, you were in Japan for a long time.

[01:01:48] This wasn't just a stint or, you know, a couple of years, uh, experience being a leader for a short period of time, you really understand the culture in many different countries. [01:02:00] And as you said, it's evolved your leadership style. So where you go now, after this could be anywhere, I think it's very exciting and I can't wait to see what it is.

[01:02:10] So thank you again for your time today.

[01:02:15] Andy: [01:02:15] My huge pleasure. It's been great. Fun talking to you. Thank you, Andy. Thank you.

[01:02:24]

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