Meet Ann Carter - Part 2 and the questions I didn’t know how to ask

[Transcript]

Jan: [00:00:49] Welcome to part two of the Anne Carter interview. Anne's first interview took place in Chicago on March 5th, just prior to the [00:01:00] pandemic. And certainly prior to the George Floyd incident and the global discussion we're having today on racism. I spoke to Anne last week about the release of her episode.

[00:01:12] And she said to me, you know, Jen, I'm not comfortable having this episode go out there without talking about racism and my heart sank. I felt uncomfortable. And I felt uncomfortable admitting that I was uncomfortable and Carter is the kind of person that you feel safe with. So even if you feeling that axed and that feeling deep down in your gut, you can talk to her about it and it's going to be okay.

[00:01:45] So I said, Anne, I'm not comfortable with this discussion because I don't know where to go with it. So what does that tell you that tells you that I needed to educate myself and she said, you know [00:02:00] what? Don't worry about it. We're going to have this discussion. I said, okay, let's do it. And since then, I have learned that in corporate America today, there are many leaders of teams and businesses who feel the same way that I did not sure where to take the discussion.

[00:02:18] So the purpose of this episode is to have a Frank open and honest discussion about racism in the workplace. And more importantly to provide actions that we can take right now to make a difference. In this episode, you'll hear an articulate beautifully. The difference between racism, discrimination and bias.

[00:02:44] We talk about recruiting. We talk about performance reviews, the promotional process, how we're in a position of power, and we can make a difference advice to young females in the workplace. [00:03:00] We talk about the true value of diversity. So let's get right into this.

[00:03:07] Ann: [00:03:07] Well, Jen, I really commend you for allowing this kind of discussion to happen on your platform.

[00:03:15] Um, this is unprecedented times with the COVID 19 pandemic and in a lot of ways black lives matter. And, uh, the racism that is underlying, it is also a pandemic. That is a scourge on the black community. Um, it's truly heartbreaking and unfortunate that the deaths of so many, uh, black Americans, uh, unnecessarily, um, has.

[00:03:49] Is a reason why we're having these discussions, but it's important that we have these discussions. Um, so thank you again for really [00:04:00] being very open and honest about your feelings. Uh, because I truly believe as I've talked to friends and colleagues, um, there is this underlying question about what, what do I do?

[00:04:14] What should I say? I don't want to be viewed as a racist, um, but I don't know how to move forward. So, um, let's start with the questions. Let's start with the hard questions and I will say I don't have all the answers. And also, I want to say to your audience, I don't represent all blacks in America. I am an African-American woman.

[00:04:42] I have, uh, African-American husband, uh, brother children. Um, so I speak from my viewpoint and I speak from my own place, um, in this journey and, um, with what we're facing. Well, and

[00:04:59] Jan: [00:04:59] let's [00:05:00] start with something you've already said, which is an easy one and use the first point that, um, I sometimes feel uncomfortable with.

[00:05:08] And that is, am I supposed to use the term black female or African-American? I am terrified that I am going to offend somebody. So let's start with the easy

[00:05:19] Ann: [00:05:19] stuff. Well, actually both are okay. I think. Well, uh, the word African-American, um, really does apply to those who are Americans who have some type of African ancestry, but there are plenty of black Americans who are from the Caribbean and don't identify with.

[00:05:48] Being African-American they consider themselves Caribbean American or, uh, from Africa who say I'm African, I'm not really [00:06:00] American, but I'm also black. So I think the distinction is that black is a broader care categorization of many, uh, uh, Uh, of the diaspora who are from descendants from Africa, but may not be all American.

[00:06:19] So, um, general terms is you're born in the us and you have, um, Uh, you were born in the us and you're black. You're considered African-American. The black is a categorization for those who may ascribe themselves to other countries, but are also black, like the Caribbean or Africa or other parts of the, um, African diaspora.

[00:06:43] Okay, thank you.

[00:06:44] Jan: [00:06:44] See this. I am more educated now than I was five minutes ago. Right? You have to take the time to educate yourself, right? It's all about education and understanding. And of course having the, the, the safety and space to [00:07:00] have this kind of conversation. So if I was in corporate America today as a leader, what advice would you give me?

[00:07:10] In having the conversation with, with my team, what, what are some of the, the questions that need to be asked and answered? Um,

[00:07:19] Ann: [00:07:19] I think, you know, first of all, really the, the central point of what you do in your podcast is about authenticity and is absolutely critical for. Leaders at all levels where, whether you're a manager with a team of two or three or senior manager with 10, or you're a vice president or a CEO, you need to come from your own authentic place and acknowledge.

[00:07:50] If you don't understand something you, I mean, quite honestly it would be inauthentic to say, you know, everything about race, um, and that, you know, all [00:08:00] the answers, you know, all the solutions. Um, and to me, the first place is to check yourself, acknowledge what you know, or what you don't know, and even acknowledge that, yes, I need to learn more, which is what you just did.

[00:08:17] I need to understand more and I need to listen. And I would say that understanding and listening is not just listening. Oh, I hear you. It is about listening with empathy. And also listening without judging, because your reality may not be your black employees reality. And I would venture to guess that it's not, I recently read an article that over half of black employees in corporate America have faced some sort of racism in the workplace, 50%.

[00:08:58] And. [00:09:00] Again, if you are a leader and you don't identify as black, you may not understand that, but that is the reality your employees are facing. So you have to listen, but listen with empathy and without judgment. And as you say, you have to educate yourself as well. How

[00:09:22] Jan: [00:09:22] do I do that? If I was a leader in corporate America today, do I sit down one-on-one with my black employees and say what, you know, say, talk to me about some of your experiences what's going on.

[00:09:39] What is your reality? Maybe ask that question directly. Is that a good starting point?

[00:09:44] Ann: [00:09:44] Yes. I think if it were me, I would choose to sit down. One-on-one with, uh, my black employees, but be careful too, that it's not viewed as I'm singling you out. [00:10:00] Exactly. Right. And then all of a sudden, you know, there's a parade, a line, take a number into your office and, and, and others view it with, you know, fear or trepidation or, you know, now what, um, so I think.

[00:10:15] Uh, sometimes it may be better to do it in a, uh, informal setting. Um, one that isn't, uh, you know, come to my office and the doors close and everybody's, you know, outside peak and across their cubicle going, Oh, what just happened? Um, and again, it's around, Hey, in light of what's going on here, how are you feeling?

[00:10:41] And maybe as the leader, you say, well, this is how I'm feeling. I'm going to either acknowledge what I know or what I don't know. And then ask the question, what can I do to be supportive of you? Um, and so I think it's important to have those conversations, [00:11:00] uh, and at some point, uh, perhaps there's a larger conversation around the systemic.

[00:11:07] Processes and policies and unspoken cultural norms that might be driving this, uh, call it conscious or unconscious bias or, um, it can be viewed as racism in the organization that you're leading. Um, and I'll. You know, talk about a little bit of examples of that, but it's also important to when you have these conversations, it to not to over promise and under deliver.

[00:11:43] So don't, uh, commit to something that, you know, on, in, in a, in a grand way. That is going to change when you may not have the single power to do it, but your voice [00:12:00] to lending to that change is absolutely, um, important. Um, and in addition to those, you know, authentic non-judgemental conversation, it can't be one and done.

[00:12:17] I mean, there's nothing worse and just view it from the other side. I get called into my superiors office. He wants to have a candidate come. He or she wants to have a candidate conversation on race. What is the person on the other side going to think? Hmm. Do I say exactly how I feel? Uh, should I back off, um, is my career going to be in jeopardy?

[00:12:46] Is this career ending for me? So those are all the thoughts that. As a leader, you have to be aware of because you have to create that safe environment if you [00:13:00] really want trust and honesty.

[00:13:02] Jan: [00:13:02] Yes. And never before I really thought about, you know, I talk all the time about creating a safe environment because this is what high-performing teams need.

[00:13:11] You know, you need trust, you need psychological safety and. It really hit me hard when you and I had that discussion the other day, because I did not know where to take it. Talking about things that, that we can, we can do, you know? Yes, we can talk. Yes, we can. We can create the safe place to have the discussion and make sure that people feel comfortable, but you know, that there has to be actions.

[00:13:38] People have to do something different. And I had a discussion with, uh, my friend, uh, actually she's my neighbor, a black female. And I asked her this very question. I said, what can we do? I need action that I could do now. And she said,

[00:13:57] Ann: [00:13:57] pay

[00:13:57] Jan: [00:13:57] attention to the [00:14:00] conversations that white people have when black people are not in the room.

[00:14:04] And I said,

[00:14:06] Ann: [00:14:06] what, what, what,

[00:14:08] Jan: [00:14:08] what? And she said, you know what I'm talking about? And it took me a minute. I had to really think about it. And there are. Stereotypes that people have in their head. Right. And then what happens is when you have a stereotype in your mind, you view somebody's actions through that lens.

[00:14:31] And then it confirms or reconfirms the stereotype and off you go, it's these little innuendos that just fuel that. And then I think what happens is not only does that become part of the culture, if it's accepted, but then it's passed down right. From generation to generation. So imagine if we could stop that because it's those little things that people say or do, or the little looks or comments don't, those are the things that can drive it.

[00:15:00] [00:15:00] I think we just all have to do exactly that pay attention to what people are saying and doing, and, and, um, it's that innuendo, maybe it's not spoken, but it's creating that environment. And if we could stop that, that would make a huge difference.

[00:15:19] Ann: [00:15:19] So I, I think you, you bring up some good points and I really do want to clarify.

[00:15:25] Uh, for the audience based on what I've read and what I've learned, there, there is bias and there is discrimination. And then there is racism and racism is really around the, uh, establishment of a hierarchy of racist and with white superiority at the top. And then the other race is the low and the black race has been defined.

[00:15:57] Um, generally [00:16:00] speaking at the lowest. So where there's discrimination, we can all have discrimination, including black people against blacks or whites. Um, the racism that we see is really around that racial superiority and hierarchy mindset. Of the white race being at the top and all the other races below.

[00:16:22] And therefore the systems and policies that we have in place are geared towards reaffirming that white superiority against all the other races. So it end it is biological in its definition, meaning the skin color then defines who's in that. White superior class versus the others. And the systemic nature of racism is that Institute institutionalization of those policies, um, economic, uh, uh, dispersion of wealth, [00:17:00] uh, or education, uh, or for that matter, let's just talk about promotion within a corporate America that excludes, um, based on skin color.

[00:17:10] Um, and I would say. Um, that you're right. We have to root it out in all aspects. And I want it, your, you, your neighbors. Um, question about our, our comment or statement about look critically at those conversations when there's only whites in the room are absolutely critical. I'll give you some examples. Um, In a company's recruiting process.

[00:17:45] Do you find recruiters, HR managers saying, geez, we used to recruit at this black college or [00:18:00] historically black colleges, but we never got enough good people. So we're no longer recruiting there. Well, why. Well, what does it mean? We never got good people. Um, you know, is, is that a form of bias? Um, and that maybe there was other factors along with, well, who did you send on campus?

[00:18:28] Were you even on campus? Did you show those students the same level of, Hey, we want you, as you would have at another, uh, white majority university. Um, you know, cause if you don't have anybody who's gone to a black university trying to recruit at a black university, there may be different things you need to do.

[00:18:51] Um, and so I say that as an example of. What are some of the kind of words that are code words that [00:19:00] kind of build into the culture? Well, we weren't successful, so we just stopped. And then, you know, all of a sudden you have, uh, a non-diverse pipeline or let's talk about hiring as a leader, as a manager question, why are you not presented?

[00:19:25] With a diverse candidate too, from which to choose from or better yet. Why are you not demanding it? Why are you not saying before I make a selection, I want to see a diverse pool of candidates because what happens behind the scene is, Oh, we just didn't have enough good candidates. So we just stopped. We just didn't go there.

[00:19:54] We tried. I'm not sure what tried means. Oh, we tried, you know, we [00:20:00] looked, but we couldn't find anybody. And so we didn't, but there are qualified. Blacks African-Americans out there who are looking for an opportunity to work for great companies. And as a matter of fact, I would venture to guess most African-Americans and blacks have more than one degree and are in some ways probably overqualified for certain positions.

[00:20:26] And then I'm going to give a third example and let's talk about year end Formance reviews and performance ranking. You know, that secret. Behind closed doors where, you know, managers and VPs are, you know, calibrating and ranking people.

[00:20:54] Right? This is where a lot of times you hear [00:21:00] comments that absolutely have nothing to do with performance or potential. Oh, You know, she just comes across as angry all the time. She's or boy he's kind of intimidating and his energy is overenthusiastic, um, or he's just doesn't quite fit. Um, and these are all.

[00:21:31] Generally cold words and excuses for placing, uh, African-Americans in lower boxes on those nine panels. And I think it's incumbent upon managers to say, okay, when I am placing my, my individuals, am I doing it with bias? You know, most people say, no, I'm not. I'm really, really candid and open and [00:22:00] I'm not, I'm not racist.

[00:22:01] I'm not biased. I'm not prejudice, but really take a look at your nine block at the end. And where do you have your people of color? Are they skewed towards that lower left? Um, and all of your non people of color are skewed towards that upper. Right. And if that is the case, why is that? And why, what is it was your leadership that you're not doing correctly because that's how you rated your people.

[00:22:33] Yes. I,

[00:22:34] Jan: [00:22:34] I think that the, the higher end process, uh, is a very interesting subject. We see hiring managers today, the conversation typically goes something along the lines of, well, we'll use supply chain since you and I are both in supply chain. I need a commodity manager for X go find me a commodity manager and Oh, by the way, I need it.

[00:22:57] Like now I need it right now. Go find me that [00:23:00] person right now. And then there's usually a followup conversation that says, Oh yeah, well, yeah, it'd be great if we could get a diversity candidate. So do what you can to make that happen. And then, you know, three weeks later you have no diversity candidates in the mix.

[00:23:18] And the hiring manager will say, okay, but I need you, maybe they'll say, you know, I need you to try harder. Right. And then the recruiter comes back and says, I have, I just can't find anybody. So this is what you got. Right. And then the hiring manager says, okay, well, I got to get this commodity manager in place right away.

[00:23:31] So boom. Off they go. Now I'm not trying to defend. That behavior, but that's sort of how the conversation goes, right? But it's, it's, that's when the hiring manager has to stop and say no. Mr. Recruiter, let me tell you, we are not going to go through this process until you. Present me with some diversity at candidates.

[00:23:52] I need to see this because it's an important value to me and to this company. And I'm not sure how many [00:24:00] people have

[00:24:00] Ann: [00:24:00] VAT discussion. Yes. And I don't think there needs to be this trade-off between speed and finding the right candidate, because quite honestly, if your recruiter cannot find, and there are an abundance of qualified, diverse candidates out there, you need to find some new recruiters.

[00:24:20] Okay. Yeah. Um, it is their job to give you, or provide you with a solution set that you. Neat. Now, if you said ID CPAs and I say, well, I just can't find any CPAs. You're going to raise your eyebrows and say, I need a new set of recruiters. Cause I know there are CPAs out there. So I'm saying there are qualified candidates out there.

[00:24:44] If you're not being presented with them, you need to ask for them. And if your CA recruiter cannot give you that, then you need to find yourself some new recruiters.

[00:24:54] Jan: [00:24:54] And it's up to the hiring manager to make it crystal clear that that is an important [00:25:00] value that regardless of speed business need, whatever is not going to be sacrificed.

[00:25:07] And that's where I think that's that extra step, that extra action that we don't always take. And that's again, that's another action we can take right now.

[00:25:16] Ann: [00:25:16] And, and I would say this too, um, If you're always waiting when there's an emergency to understand whether you have a diverse workforce or not, then you're doing it all wrong.

[00:25:29] And, and managers need to be looking around at their workforce rate today. Their direct reports, their direct reports, direct reports and putting together action plans today, not wait until somebody quits or there's some urgency business need. To start tackling the real issue of diversity, because if you look around and your entire leadership team is white males, then I would say [00:26:00] you've got some work to do.

[00:26:02] There's a really interesting book called how to be an anti-racist and. The premise of that book, is that an anti-racist is one that views all races as being equal. Meaning there is no superiority, there isn't a white superiority issue, meaning you don't have to conform to the norms of the superior race.

[00:26:25] You know, all cultures, all races have, uh, are respected and have equal status. Where we need to go in, uh, in society and in it in corporate America as well is to dismantle those systems of selection and of allocation of capital, uh, wealth that is based on racial [00:27:00] hierarchy, because there are statistics out there.

[00:27:05] That white school districts get a disproportional share of taxpayer dollars where blessed school districts. Don't. And why is that? Why, why is that? I mean, I don't have the answers to it, but why is it that is the disproportionate? Are we not all. Are they not all schools, they not, all children need to learn.

[00:27:30] And so those are the kinds of things that I think, um, we have to dismantle and even in the promotion process now let's just talk about promotion process in corporate America. In many cases, I'm not saying this happens in old, uh, corporations. It is an unknown. It is, uh, Is is like an amoeba. Shh. It changes shape depending out what is going on.

[00:28:00] [00:27:59] Sometimes you have that direct fill process and all of a sudden, Oh man, I didn't know. He was even being considered. Sometimes it's a, okay, you got to go through, uh, four rounds of interview. First of all, the hiring manager is going to interview. Then there's an HR manager and that's going to interview.

[00:28:17] Then you've got a panel discussion and then you've got a final panel discussion. Cause we just gonna narrow they the, the, um, the, the number of applicants down. So why is that? And more than enough times, I've not seen. African-Americans be placed in that. Okay. I'm just going to place you in that position, hiring process, that's just internal hiring internal promotion.

[00:28:48] And so you kind of wonder, well, who's in control of putting these processes into place that says this one I can place directly, but this one I'm going to make you go through [00:29:00] four different rounds of interviews. And those are the questions I think. For many African-Americans, uh, white allies can help us understand and also help us break those down, uh, because those are those exist.

[00:29:16] And I, I know Jan you're smiling cause you've seen it, you know, I seen it before. Um, and so it's really important that we, because once we do that, it's not just that it's good for African-Americans. It's good for everybody. W we're a much more transparent company and organization. The culture is not one to secrecy or do I know the club handshake in order to be able to move up the ladder?

[00:29:50] Um, and so I think it's really important that, uh, allies and that people who [00:30:00] are in positions of power, which generally are. Uh, the white community are using their power to help break down these racist processes that sometimes you don't even know are there, you know, you don't identify them as that. It's not an idea, but all of them are exclusionary and generally exclusionary based on skin color.

[00:30:29] Jan: [00:30:29] And that's why we have to. Get through this discomfort that we might be feeling to have these conversations, to expose these systems that are out there and processes

[00:30:39] Ann: [00:30:39] that are out there. Oh, absolutely. Um, I think, you know, the, the audience who's listening to this, um, recognize it's not about you or your discomfort is about recognizing.

[00:31:00] [00:31:00] The humanity of us all. And that if you are in a position of power and of influence, what are you going to do with that power influence? Because sitting back and being silent, when you see something that is biased, Is not changing anything. And I would pause it that sitting back and being silent is promoting a system of racism.

[00:31:39] Jan: [00:31:39] It is, it's like the, the behavior of your child, right. If you allow it to happen without saying something, then you're accepting it and you're supporting it. And I think we're all so afraid of upsetting people. Right? You don't. You don't want to offend, uh, as our, our [00:32:00] early discussion, right? I didn't want to, I was in this fear of offending of upsetting somebody we've got to get over that.

[00:32:07] As long as we're coming from a good place from an authentic place, you coming from the heart, then it's okay to have. To have these discussions, but when you see that kind of behavior taking place, you're right. You, you cannot, you can no longer be silent about it. And really what this what's happening in the world right now, black lives matter.

[00:32:31] It's given us the platform to have that discussion. It's you it's right now, it's happening right now. So forever in a meeting from this point from a web, whatever you listening to this podcast from this day forward, you cannot be silent any longer. You have to comment, even though you might not understand what's happening, that doesn't feel right.

[00:32:54] Something doesn't feel quite right. Talk about

[00:32:57] Ann: [00:32:57] it. Absolutely. [00:33:00] And you know, I think taking. Ashton in summary means one first get educated and know that racism is systemic. Read about the history of America. And you will read about how racist policies go all the way back, even before our founding and how they still exist today and know that you have the power to make change, um, that you have the power to.

[00:33:34] Demand, for example, a diverse slate of candidates, um, or that you have the right to look at your team and say, Hey, do I have the most diverse team around me? And if I don't, why not? And what can I do about it? And also it's about being vulnerable. Yeah. So you might put your [00:34:00] foot in your mouth one day, but I'd rather, um, That you say something and get educated, then say nothing and then continue to support a system that is not working for equality.

[00:34:15] So Anne

[00:34:17] Jan: [00:34:17] you've held senior executive level positions with major corporations in this country, multiple industries. You are a tremendous success. You're a great leader. People love working for you. You've got it all. You've got the, the content, the intelligence, you know what you're doing? You're a good leader.

[00:34:38] You've you've got it all. What advice? Would you give a young, black female listening to this podcast right now? Would the advice be any different to a white female? I don't know. Maybe that maybe it's the same advice.

[00:34:58] Ann: [00:34:58] Great question. [00:35:00] Um, I think in general, uh, my advice would be similar to whether I was mentoring a young black.

[00:35:11] Uh, up and coming star or a young, white up and coming star. Um, number one would be to really get comfortable with knowing that you have the skills and the capability and the knowledge to move forward. Um, I do believe not all women, but women in general. Suffered from a lack of confidence and sometimes the imposter syndrome.

[00:35:45] Um, and to number one, if you have that voice in the back of your head going, Oh gosh, I'm not so sure. I don't know if I can do [00:36:00] this. I don't know if I should go after it, not try to quiet that voice. Because I'm telling you, if you've gotten this far in your career, you can go further, um, believe in yourself.

[00:36:15] Um, number two, I believe that you should treat people, um, like you would want to be treated. Uh, there are going to be times when you encounter someone who is, let me just use a word nasty. Uh, perhaps a boss who doesn't understand you or a colleague who is brash or a mean, or, uh, potentially a bully, uh, recognize you don't have to put up with it because that is not the [00:37:00] environment that will lead to success.

[00:37:02] Take advantage of opportunities for learning for growth, uh, programs that are put in place. You're not qualified. Don't think you're not worthy. Sign up for those programs. Get as much under your belt as you can, because those that trainee is invaluable and will carry on. As you grow in your career.

[00:37:29] Jan: [00:37:29] Yeah, that's well said.

[00:37:30] And I think, you know, and your voice is so important for young people, not just women, but coming up in the workforce because it's hard for people to become something that they can't see. I think there's a quote out there along those lines somewhere, and it, people need to need to see, to see you. In the role in the executive role, um, that you're in so that they can look at that and say, see if [00:38:00] she can do it.

[00:38:01] If she can do it just maybe, maybe I could do it too. It really helps people break through this idea of an imposter syndrome. Because if you don't see somebody that kinda sorta looks like you in that high level role, it's really hard to, to see yourself in it. So I think that, you know, your voice is really important on the subject.

[00:38:22] The other thought that I had as we're going through our conversation here is this underlying thought that many leaders out there may not truly understand the value of diversity. And what running a diverse team looks like and feels like. And I will tell you, honestly, that I probably 15 years ago, I would have had trouble seeing an articulating the value of a diverse team, knowing that it's the right [00:39:00] thing to do.

[00:39:01] Right there, but that's different. No, it's the right thing to do. And then seeing that and feeling that value and what it can bring to the table in a business. For me, I didn't really get it until I did it. And now that I have run, you know, diverse team after diverse team, after diverse team, I would not have it any other way.

[00:39:28] It's and it really is diversity of thought. You know, when, when you've got people from different backgrounds, whether it's race, whether it's socioeconomic, whether it's, um, age, whatever it is, the value of all that diversity coming together creates such a high performing team or the foundation for a tremendously successful team.

[00:39:52] Um, any thoughts on that to help people understand the value of diversity?

[00:39:57] Ann: [00:39:57] Yes. I, you know, the, the [00:40:00] arrogant way of thinking is that creativity and innovation just comes from one group of people and they all have to think alike. They have to want to do things the same way and, uh, like the same things conform to a norm.

[00:40:21] And to me, that's, that is. The height of arrogance, because when you look around at the world and you look back at history, creativity and innovation came from all areas, all races, all skin colors. Um, and so to truly, um, uh, look at an embrace diversity. Just think of all the ideas that would have been excluded and the, all the ideas around technology [00:41:00] or just major inventions, uh, how we govern and, uh, food inventions or technology inventions that would not come into corporate America.

[00:41:13] If we only looked at ideas. And innovations from a small group that was at the top. And to me, that's the ROI because as a company or as part of a team, you've just left a lot of money and opportunity on the table for someone else who does recognize diversity to pick up and run with.

[00:41:44] Jan: [00:41:44] Pat's a perfect way to close our discussion today.

[00:41:50] I would like to send a message to our audience and it's simply this take action. Now, do something [00:42:00] now. Stop those conversations that are happening. The innuendo, the informal discussions. Embrace diversity. And do it now and closing comments from you today,

[00:42:16] Ann: [00:42:16] Jan, thank you very much. And um, I think this has been a much needed and I, I welcome being part of this discussion.

[00:42:24] The work has just started, um, is not going to happen overnight. The systems that we put in place did not just come up or spring up. A year ago. Um, they have been in place for a long time, um, and we need to be diligent and we need everybody's support. Uh, we need everyone to be allies, um, and, um, to take action as you just called for.

[00:42:50] So thank you again.

[00:42:52] Jan: [00:42:52] Yeah. And thank you, Anne, for giving me the safe space to be vulnerable and explore an area [00:43:00] that up until this conversation I was uncomfortable with, and now I can say I am not, and I am definitely more educated. Now than I was at the beginning of the podcast. So thank you, Anne Carta.

[00:43:13] Ann: [00:43:13] Thank you. Tan.